Do flanking and sneak attack apply to a creature that is flanked by other characters?











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This came up in a game recently in a 3.5 game. Two of our warriors were flanking a big-bad from either side. Then the party's Rogue attacked from another side of the big bad:



$begin{array}{|c|c|c|}
hline
\
hline
W & B & W \
hline
& R & \ hline
end{array}$



Key:
B: Big Bad, W: Warriors, R: Rogue



My questions are:




  1. Who gets the flanking bonuses to hit? Clearly the warriors do, but does the Rogue? the Rogue is not technically flanking with anyone, but the opponent is flanked.


  2. Does the Rogue get sneak attack? If the Rogue gets the flanking bonus in the previous question, I think the answer is pretty clearly yes. But if not, does the Rogue have to be flanking to apply sneak attack, or can it be applied to a flanked enemy?











share|improve this question




























    up vote
    6
    down vote

    favorite
    1












    This came up in a game recently in a 3.5 game. Two of our warriors were flanking a big-bad from either side. Then the party's Rogue attacked from another side of the big bad:



    $begin{array}{|c|c|c|}
    hline
    \
    hline
    W & B & W \
    hline
    & R & \ hline
    end{array}$



    Key:
    B: Big Bad, W: Warriors, R: Rogue



    My questions are:




    1. Who gets the flanking bonuses to hit? Clearly the warriors do, but does the Rogue? the Rogue is not technically flanking with anyone, but the opponent is flanked.


    2. Does the Rogue get sneak attack? If the Rogue gets the flanking bonus in the previous question, I think the answer is pretty clearly yes. But if not, does the Rogue have to be flanking to apply sneak attack, or can it be applied to a flanked enemy?











    share|improve this question


























      up vote
      6
      down vote

      favorite
      1









      up vote
      6
      down vote

      favorite
      1






      1





      This came up in a game recently in a 3.5 game. Two of our warriors were flanking a big-bad from either side. Then the party's Rogue attacked from another side of the big bad:



      $begin{array}{|c|c|c|}
      hline
      \
      hline
      W & B & W \
      hline
      & R & \ hline
      end{array}$



      Key:
      B: Big Bad, W: Warriors, R: Rogue



      My questions are:




      1. Who gets the flanking bonuses to hit? Clearly the warriors do, but does the Rogue? the Rogue is not technically flanking with anyone, but the opponent is flanked.


      2. Does the Rogue get sneak attack? If the Rogue gets the flanking bonus in the previous question, I think the answer is pretty clearly yes. But if not, does the Rogue have to be flanking to apply sneak attack, or can it be applied to a flanked enemy?











      share|improve this question















      This came up in a game recently in a 3.5 game. Two of our warriors were flanking a big-bad from either side. Then the party's Rogue attacked from another side of the big bad:



      $begin{array}{|c|c|c|}
      hline
      \
      hline
      W & B & W \
      hline
      & R & \ hline
      end{array}$



      Key:
      B: Big Bad, W: Warriors, R: Rogue



      My questions are:




      1. Who gets the flanking bonuses to hit? Clearly the warriors do, but does the Rogue? the Rogue is not technically flanking with anyone, but the opponent is flanked.


      2. Does the Rogue get sneak attack? If the Rogue gets the flanking bonus in the previous question, I think the answer is pretty clearly yes. But if not, does the Rogue have to be flanking to apply sneak attack, or can it be applied to a flanked enemy?








      dnd-3.5e rogue sneak-attack flanking






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      share|improve this question








      edited Nov 7 at 16:54









      SevenSidedDie

      202k27643923




      202k27643923










      asked Nov 7 at 16:44









      flanknshank

      313




      313






















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          10
          down vote













          No, It does not.




          FLANKING



          When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on
          the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.



          When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent
          in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly
          characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of
          the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the
          opponent is flanked.




          The rogue is not in a flanking position. So does not get the bonus.




          Sneak Attack



          If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself
          effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra
          damage.



          The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be
          denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a
          Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.




          Key words here, Her attack. The rogue does not have a flanking position bonus so does not get to sneak attack.




          1. The warrior get flanking bonus to hit. The rogue does not.

          2. No. The rogue does not get sneak attack.






          share|improve this answer























          • Quick rule of thumb: Flanking is a condition on the attackers, not the defender. Question that must be asked is, Who flanks? Not: Is X flanked?
            – martixy
            Nov 12 at 16:49


















          up vote
          4
          down vote













          By default, no.




          When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.




          (Flanking rules)



          You only get this bonus if you are flanking with a partner on the opposite side: if two allies flank the target and you are coming from a different angle (without a partner), the target is not “threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner,” so you do not get a flanking bonus. The fact that your allies are flanking the target (and do get that bonus when they attack themselves) is not relevant at all.




          The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time [...] when the rogue flanks her target.




          (Sneak attack rules)



          This specifies that the rogue must be flanking the target, rather than the target merely be flanked. Note how this contrasts with the other option, “any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC,” which only cares that the target is in that state, not how it came to be or whether the rogue caused it. The subject of the denied-Dex condition is the target itself, while the subject of the flanking condition is the rogue.



          However, there are ways to work around this.



          The easiest and most effective is probably island of blades, a Shadow Hand stance from Tome of Battle. While in this stance, you and your allies flank merely by both being adjacent to a target, rather than having to be on opposite sides of the target. That would allow the rogue here to be flanking, gaining its intrinsic bonus as well as enabling sneak attack. In fact, island of blades would allow the rogue to flank and sneak attack with just one of the warriors, and also lets that warrior also flank.



          A rogue can pick up island of blades as early as 3rd level by taking the Martial Study feat for any Shadow Hand maneuver at 1st, and then the Martial Stance feat at 3rd to pick up island of blades. Both Martial Study and Martial Stance are feats in Tome of Battle itself. Alternatively, the swordsage base class from the same can get island of blades as a 1st-level class feature, making that an attractive multiclass option for a rogue. Having a Shadow Hand stance also enables the use of the excellent Shadow Blade feat, allowing you to use Dexterity instead of Strength to your damage with certain weapons—most rogues will appreciate that.



          Other, similar effects exist; it seems beyond the scope of this question to attempt to list them all here.






          share|improve this answer





















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            2 Answers
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            up vote
            10
            down vote













            No, It does not.




            FLANKING



            When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on
            the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.



            When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent
            in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly
            characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of
            the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the
            opponent is flanked.




            The rogue is not in a flanking position. So does not get the bonus.




            Sneak Attack



            If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself
            effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra
            damage.



            The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be
            denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a
            Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.




            Key words here, Her attack. The rogue does not have a flanking position bonus so does not get to sneak attack.




            1. The warrior get flanking bonus to hit. The rogue does not.

            2. No. The rogue does not get sneak attack.






            share|improve this answer























            • Quick rule of thumb: Flanking is a condition on the attackers, not the defender. Question that must be asked is, Who flanks? Not: Is X flanked?
              – martixy
              Nov 12 at 16:49















            up vote
            10
            down vote













            No, It does not.




            FLANKING



            When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on
            the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.



            When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent
            in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly
            characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of
            the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the
            opponent is flanked.




            The rogue is not in a flanking position. So does not get the bonus.




            Sneak Attack



            If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself
            effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra
            damage.



            The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be
            denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a
            Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.




            Key words here, Her attack. The rogue does not have a flanking position bonus so does not get to sneak attack.




            1. The warrior get flanking bonus to hit. The rogue does not.

            2. No. The rogue does not get sneak attack.






            share|improve this answer























            • Quick rule of thumb: Flanking is a condition on the attackers, not the defender. Question that must be asked is, Who flanks? Not: Is X flanked?
              – martixy
              Nov 12 at 16:49













            up vote
            10
            down vote










            up vote
            10
            down vote









            No, It does not.




            FLANKING



            When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on
            the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.



            When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent
            in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly
            characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of
            the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the
            opponent is flanked.




            The rogue is not in a flanking position. So does not get the bonus.




            Sneak Attack



            If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself
            effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra
            damage.



            The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be
            denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a
            Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.




            Key words here, Her attack. The rogue does not have a flanking position bonus so does not get to sneak attack.




            1. The warrior get flanking bonus to hit. The rogue does not.

            2. No. The rogue does not get sneak attack.






            share|improve this answer














            No, It does not.




            FLANKING



            When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on
            the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.



            When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent
            in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly
            characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of
            the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the
            opponent is flanked.




            The rogue is not in a flanking position. So does not get the bonus.




            Sneak Attack



            If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself
            effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra
            damage.



            The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be
            denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a
            Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.




            Key words here, Her attack. The rogue does not have a flanking position bonus so does not get to sneak attack.




            1. The warrior get flanking bonus to hit. The rogue does not.

            2. No. The rogue does not get sneak attack.







            share|improve this answer














            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer








            edited Nov 7 at 17:27









            KRyan

            215k27537924




            215k27537924










            answered Nov 7 at 17:19









            BaronBart

            2897




            2897












            • Quick rule of thumb: Flanking is a condition on the attackers, not the defender. Question that must be asked is, Who flanks? Not: Is X flanked?
              – martixy
              Nov 12 at 16:49


















            • Quick rule of thumb: Flanking is a condition on the attackers, not the defender. Question that must be asked is, Who flanks? Not: Is X flanked?
              – martixy
              Nov 12 at 16:49
















            Quick rule of thumb: Flanking is a condition on the attackers, not the defender. Question that must be asked is, Who flanks? Not: Is X flanked?
            – martixy
            Nov 12 at 16:49




            Quick rule of thumb: Flanking is a condition on the attackers, not the defender. Question that must be asked is, Who flanks? Not: Is X flanked?
            – martixy
            Nov 12 at 16:49












            up vote
            4
            down vote













            By default, no.




            When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.




            (Flanking rules)



            You only get this bonus if you are flanking with a partner on the opposite side: if two allies flank the target and you are coming from a different angle (without a partner), the target is not “threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner,” so you do not get a flanking bonus. The fact that your allies are flanking the target (and do get that bonus when they attack themselves) is not relevant at all.




            The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time [...] when the rogue flanks her target.




            (Sneak attack rules)



            This specifies that the rogue must be flanking the target, rather than the target merely be flanked. Note how this contrasts with the other option, “any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC,” which only cares that the target is in that state, not how it came to be or whether the rogue caused it. The subject of the denied-Dex condition is the target itself, while the subject of the flanking condition is the rogue.



            However, there are ways to work around this.



            The easiest and most effective is probably island of blades, a Shadow Hand stance from Tome of Battle. While in this stance, you and your allies flank merely by both being adjacent to a target, rather than having to be on opposite sides of the target. That would allow the rogue here to be flanking, gaining its intrinsic bonus as well as enabling sneak attack. In fact, island of blades would allow the rogue to flank and sneak attack with just one of the warriors, and also lets that warrior also flank.



            A rogue can pick up island of blades as early as 3rd level by taking the Martial Study feat for any Shadow Hand maneuver at 1st, and then the Martial Stance feat at 3rd to pick up island of blades. Both Martial Study and Martial Stance are feats in Tome of Battle itself. Alternatively, the swordsage base class from the same can get island of blades as a 1st-level class feature, making that an attractive multiclass option for a rogue. Having a Shadow Hand stance also enables the use of the excellent Shadow Blade feat, allowing you to use Dexterity instead of Strength to your damage with certain weapons—most rogues will appreciate that.



            Other, similar effects exist; it seems beyond the scope of this question to attempt to list them all here.






            share|improve this answer

























              up vote
              4
              down vote













              By default, no.




              When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.




              (Flanking rules)



              You only get this bonus if you are flanking with a partner on the opposite side: if two allies flank the target and you are coming from a different angle (without a partner), the target is not “threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner,” so you do not get a flanking bonus. The fact that your allies are flanking the target (and do get that bonus when they attack themselves) is not relevant at all.




              The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time [...] when the rogue flanks her target.




              (Sneak attack rules)



              This specifies that the rogue must be flanking the target, rather than the target merely be flanked. Note how this contrasts with the other option, “any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC,” which only cares that the target is in that state, not how it came to be or whether the rogue caused it. The subject of the denied-Dex condition is the target itself, while the subject of the flanking condition is the rogue.



              However, there are ways to work around this.



              The easiest and most effective is probably island of blades, a Shadow Hand stance from Tome of Battle. While in this stance, you and your allies flank merely by both being adjacent to a target, rather than having to be on opposite sides of the target. That would allow the rogue here to be flanking, gaining its intrinsic bonus as well as enabling sneak attack. In fact, island of blades would allow the rogue to flank and sneak attack with just one of the warriors, and also lets that warrior also flank.



              A rogue can pick up island of blades as early as 3rd level by taking the Martial Study feat for any Shadow Hand maneuver at 1st, and then the Martial Stance feat at 3rd to pick up island of blades. Both Martial Study and Martial Stance are feats in Tome of Battle itself. Alternatively, the swordsage base class from the same can get island of blades as a 1st-level class feature, making that an attractive multiclass option for a rogue. Having a Shadow Hand stance also enables the use of the excellent Shadow Blade feat, allowing you to use Dexterity instead of Strength to your damage with certain weapons—most rogues will appreciate that.



              Other, similar effects exist; it seems beyond the scope of this question to attempt to list them all here.






              share|improve this answer























                up vote
                4
                down vote










                up vote
                4
                down vote









                By default, no.




                When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.




                (Flanking rules)



                You only get this bonus if you are flanking with a partner on the opposite side: if two allies flank the target and you are coming from a different angle (without a partner), the target is not “threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner,” so you do not get a flanking bonus. The fact that your allies are flanking the target (and do get that bonus when they attack themselves) is not relevant at all.




                The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time [...] when the rogue flanks her target.




                (Sneak attack rules)



                This specifies that the rogue must be flanking the target, rather than the target merely be flanked. Note how this contrasts with the other option, “any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC,” which only cares that the target is in that state, not how it came to be or whether the rogue caused it. The subject of the denied-Dex condition is the target itself, while the subject of the flanking condition is the rogue.



                However, there are ways to work around this.



                The easiest and most effective is probably island of blades, a Shadow Hand stance from Tome of Battle. While in this stance, you and your allies flank merely by both being adjacent to a target, rather than having to be on opposite sides of the target. That would allow the rogue here to be flanking, gaining its intrinsic bonus as well as enabling sneak attack. In fact, island of blades would allow the rogue to flank and sneak attack with just one of the warriors, and also lets that warrior also flank.



                A rogue can pick up island of blades as early as 3rd level by taking the Martial Study feat for any Shadow Hand maneuver at 1st, and then the Martial Stance feat at 3rd to pick up island of blades. Both Martial Study and Martial Stance are feats in Tome of Battle itself. Alternatively, the swordsage base class from the same can get island of blades as a 1st-level class feature, making that an attractive multiclass option for a rogue. Having a Shadow Hand stance also enables the use of the excellent Shadow Blade feat, allowing you to use Dexterity instead of Strength to your damage with certain weapons—most rogues will appreciate that.



                Other, similar effects exist; it seems beyond the scope of this question to attempt to list them all here.






                share|improve this answer












                By default, no.




                When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.




                (Flanking rules)



                You only get this bonus if you are flanking with a partner on the opposite side: if two allies flank the target and you are coming from a different angle (without a partner), the target is not “threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner,” so you do not get a flanking bonus. The fact that your allies are flanking the target (and do get that bonus when they attack themselves) is not relevant at all.




                The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time [...] when the rogue flanks her target.




                (Sneak attack rules)



                This specifies that the rogue must be flanking the target, rather than the target merely be flanked. Note how this contrasts with the other option, “any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC,” which only cares that the target is in that state, not how it came to be or whether the rogue caused it. The subject of the denied-Dex condition is the target itself, while the subject of the flanking condition is the rogue.



                However, there are ways to work around this.



                The easiest and most effective is probably island of blades, a Shadow Hand stance from Tome of Battle. While in this stance, you and your allies flank merely by both being adjacent to a target, rather than having to be on opposite sides of the target. That would allow the rogue here to be flanking, gaining its intrinsic bonus as well as enabling sneak attack. In fact, island of blades would allow the rogue to flank and sneak attack with just one of the warriors, and also lets that warrior also flank.



                A rogue can pick up island of blades as early as 3rd level by taking the Martial Study feat for any Shadow Hand maneuver at 1st, and then the Martial Stance feat at 3rd to pick up island of blades. Both Martial Study and Martial Stance are feats in Tome of Battle itself. Alternatively, the swordsage base class from the same can get island of blades as a 1st-level class feature, making that an attractive multiclass option for a rogue. Having a Shadow Hand stance also enables the use of the excellent Shadow Blade feat, allowing you to use Dexterity instead of Strength to your damage with certain weapons—most rogues will appreciate that.



                Other, similar effects exist; it seems beyond the scope of this question to attempt to list them all here.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered Nov 7 at 17:19









                KRyan

                215k27537924




                215k27537924






























                     

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