How does the signal know where the cable ends and the antenna starts?
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I know very little about antennas. I know, that for a certain frequency the antenna needs a certain lengths for good sending/receiving conditions.
Often the antenna is at the end of a cable. Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?
antenna
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up vote
15
down vote
favorite
I know very little about antennas. I know, that for a certain frequency the antenna needs a certain lengths for good sending/receiving conditions.
Often the antenna is at the end of a cable. Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?
antenna
add a comment |
up vote
15
down vote
favorite
up vote
15
down vote
favorite
I know very little about antennas. I know, that for a certain frequency the antenna needs a certain lengths for good sending/receiving conditions.
Often the antenna is at the end of a cable. Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?
antenna
I know very little about antennas. I know, that for a certain frequency the antenna needs a certain lengths for good sending/receiving conditions.
Often the antenna is at the end of a cable. Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?
antenna
antenna
asked Nov 6 at 19:38
flux
7613
7613
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5 Answers
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up vote
22
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An excellent question! Without diving too deep into the theory, let's start with a few basic terms.
The "signal" that an antenna is receiving or transmitting is called an electromagnetic wave. This is exactly the same type of wave as light. It is just that the our eyes are sensitive to a narrow range of frequencies that we call light. Electromagnetic waves that are lower in frequency behave exactly the same but we cannot see them. These lower frequencies are generally called RF (radio frequencies). Antennas are used to radiate (transmit) and receive electromagnetic RF signals.
The cable or wire that goes between the antenna and a receiver or transmitter is called a transmission line. We use this term even if the cable is simply used for receiving purposes. A transmission line is specifically designed to not radiate an electromagnetic wave but only transport it from one end of the transmission line to the other. There are several types of construction that can meet this requirement but you are probably most familiar with coaxial cable - the same type of cable that is used for "cable TV".
In the case of the coaxial cable, the outer shield keeps the electromagnetic wave contained between the outer shield and the inner conductor. And as it does so, the electromagnetic wave moves from one end of the cable to the other.
The device that generates the electromagnetic wave is called the source. This could be a transmitter or, when receiving a signal, it is the antenna. At the other end of the transmission line is the load. When transmitting, the antenna is considered the load and when receiving it is the receiver that is the load. By convention, the electromagnetic wave travels from the source end to the load end.
So now armed with these few terms, we can restate your question as: Why isn't the transmission line included as part of the antenna when accounting for the length of the antenna?
The simple answer is to realize that an antenna is specifically designed to receive or radiate electromagnetic waves. And you are correct that the dimensions of the antenna play a key role in its overall performance. But now contrast this to the transmission line that is specifically designed to not radiate electromagnetic waves.
We can draw a comparison here to a garden hose and a sprinkler. The garden hose is specifically designed to transport the water from one end to the other without leaking any of it along the way (although I have a few hoses that seem not to have gotten that memo). The sprinkler, on the other hand, is specifically designed to "leak" water in a very specific pattern and volume.
I hope that is the level of answer you were expecting. Feel free to use the comments to ask for any clarifications or additional depth.
6
Love the garden hose / sprinkler analogy, it made things so clear!
– Thomas
Nov 7 at 12:31
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Antennas are often resonant. Their physical dimensions are adjusted so standing waves develop at a particular frequency, like a bell rings at a particular tone.
Feedlines are not usually resonant. Usually an engineer ensures the end of the feedline is terminated (by the antenna or the radio) with an impedance that matches the characteristic impedance of the feedline. This ensures that as a wavefront reaches the end of the feedline it's fully absorbed and none of it is reflected back. Since there are ideally no reflections of energy in this configuration, resonance can't happen.
There are of course counterexamples. Non-resonant antennas exist in some applications, especially when the antenna must be physically small, or in receive-only applications where efficiency isn't as important. And transmission lines can be used to introduce controlled phase shifts into the signal, for example to make phased arrays or matching networks, and for this they must be cut to specific lengths that depend on frequency.
1
Just to note that a non-resonant antenna will radiate almost all of the r-f energy that flows along its conductor(s) - as effectively as a resonant antenna.
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 14:36
1
Theoretically, assuming no losses, sure. In practice engineers make antennas resonant if there isn't a reason to do otherwise since this minimizes reactive power, and associated losses in real systems.
– Phil Frost - W8II
Nov 7 at 14:38
2
However it can be more practical to make the antenna system resonant, rather than its radiating conductor(s).
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 15:15
1
Few, if any AM broadcast towers are naturally resonant (j = 0 ohms), with the real term of their input Z = 50 ohms. Almost always they need/use a network at their feedpoint to match them to the Zo of the transmission line connected there.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 15:42
1
To elaborate, a naturally resonant (j0) AM broadcast radiator of slightly less than 90 degrees height might have a radiation resistance of about 33 ohms. Without a matching network, it would need to be driven against an r-f ground connection having a resistance of 17 ohms in order to present a 1:1 SWR match to a 50 ohm line connected to its input terminals. No broadcast station would tolerate that loss in system radiation efficiency, and in almost all cases the FCC would not even permit or license it.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 16:17
|
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up vote
4
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RF signals have no consciousness so they really don't know anything. All they can do is follow the laws of physics. When a signal is traveling in a transmission line conductor there is another signal of equal amplitude and opposite direction (phase) traveling in the other conductor close by. The RF fields from those two signals (almost) cancel so no (or very little) energy is lost to radiation from a transmission line. But suddenly those two signals split up and go off at right angles to each other at the dipole feedpoint so there is no other field close by to cancel the antenna's fields. Both signals are now free to radiate their fields as RF signals propagating through the air - and they do just that. When in the transmission line, the RF signals in each wire are traveling in opposite directions, i.e. are differential. But when one wire takes a 90 degree left hand turn and the other takes a 90 degree right hand turn, it results in the two currents flowing in the same direction, i.e. changes them to radiating antenna currents.
New contributor
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up vote
1
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"Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?" It is not so easy to point to the misunderstanding here. Surely the length of the feeder cable matters in some cases. In the first place, sensors for E-fields or H-fields are often described as antennas (loop antennas or whip antennas.) That is misleading because very small (in wavelength) antennas depend on using specific types of amplifiers to provide wideband coverage. For transmit they require VERY special low noise matching that makes the bandwidth VERY limited. Many antennas used by amateurs actually use the feed line as the radiator. If there is a common mode current, (the currents on the two conductors are not exactly equal) the cable is radiating. (Or usually more important, picking up interference.)
An antenna cable that is perfectly well installed to not radiate at all might have a length that provides an impedance match to the antenna so cable length is sometimes important.
I think the "simple" question does not have a simple answer. With a purist attitude, the transmission cable is "ideal" and then its length does not matter. The "ideal" antenna is matched to the cable at the frequency of operation and then the cable length does not matter. There is a confusion between field sensors (active devices) and antennas. In real life nothing is ideal. As I understand it, most operators have non-ideal antennas that suffer from pick-up of local E- or H- fields because of inadequate means to force common mode currents on feed cables to be zero.
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-2
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Coax cable in the top answer is what confines the signal to a properly matched antenna. Because in theory the atenna and the cable should be seen as a continous conduit and has the ability to influence its surroundings.
Short Answer:
Because we want it to.
Long Answer:
Contary to popular belief an insulator at some point becomes an conductor. Your cable if enough engery pumped through, looses its ability to contain and it becomes a coductor and adds to lenght of the atenna.
The reason why i bring up impedence is that, lets say i have a diffrence of impedence between the antenna and the transmiter. The signal needs to have a path of least resistance to get to the "interface"
The stuff that we want is not a direct radiation of said signal but rather the result of tha magnetic power that is unduced in the antenna that is the result of the action that is going inside the atenna, to put it in simple terms.
The reason is that the coax is seen as a insolator is because, the radiation is not powerfull enough to induce a current in the coax past the alluminum jacket that is present in the cable.
Mike is correct but a concept is missing is called inductance. You do need an inductor to shift the resonance of antenna, however,
combined with the fact that the antenna by virtue of it inducting the magnetic feilds has the property of beimg able to translate the magetic feild by forcing the electrons to move and resonate with the incoming signal inside the receiver antenna.
Impedance is needed to talk about in discusing an antenna design because in reality the signal does not see but rather It just moves along in a path with least resistance.
In summary:
The reason why the singal sees the antenna lenght rather than the cable combined with the antenna lenght,
A. the cables ability to prevent it from being a conductor being that the sleaving keeps the signal from leaking and influencing the outside.
B. it is impedance matched so the signal can influence the antenna with the least resistance.
C. Antennas are designed that the concentration of energy is at that point.
Going Back to mine and orginal Analogy
Your cable is like a water hose and your water is the signal. at first when you dont put a nozzel on the end and turn on the water the water foutains, this is what a signal looks like.
You add a nozzel which is your antenna you can now focus the singal to its destination.
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
22
down vote
An excellent question! Without diving too deep into the theory, let's start with a few basic terms.
The "signal" that an antenna is receiving or transmitting is called an electromagnetic wave. This is exactly the same type of wave as light. It is just that the our eyes are sensitive to a narrow range of frequencies that we call light. Electromagnetic waves that are lower in frequency behave exactly the same but we cannot see them. These lower frequencies are generally called RF (radio frequencies). Antennas are used to radiate (transmit) and receive electromagnetic RF signals.
The cable or wire that goes between the antenna and a receiver or transmitter is called a transmission line. We use this term even if the cable is simply used for receiving purposes. A transmission line is specifically designed to not radiate an electromagnetic wave but only transport it from one end of the transmission line to the other. There are several types of construction that can meet this requirement but you are probably most familiar with coaxial cable - the same type of cable that is used for "cable TV".
In the case of the coaxial cable, the outer shield keeps the electromagnetic wave contained between the outer shield and the inner conductor. And as it does so, the electromagnetic wave moves from one end of the cable to the other.
The device that generates the electromagnetic wave is called the source. This could be a transmitter or, when receiving a signal, it is the antenna. At the other end of the transmission line is the load. When transmitting, the antenna is considered the load and when receiving it is the receiver that is the load. By convention, the electromagnetic wave travels from the source end to the load end.
So now armed with these few terms, we can restate your question as: Why isn't the transmission line included as part of the antenna when accounting for the length of the antenna?
The simple answer is to realize that an antenna is specifically designed to receive or radiate electromagnetic waves. And you are correct that the dimensions of the antenna play a key role in its overall performance. But now contrast this to the transmission line that is specifically designed to not radiate electromagnetic waves.
We can draw a comparison here to a garden hose and a sprinkler. The garden hose is specifically designed to transport the water from one end to the other without leaking any of it along the way (although I have a few hoses that seem not to have gotten that memo). The sprinkler, on the other hand, is specifically designed to "leak" water in a very specific pattern and volume.
I hope that is the level of answer you were expecting. Feel free to use the comments to ask for any clarifications or additional depth.
6
Love the garden hose / sprinkler analogy, it made things so clear!
– Thomas
Nov 7 at 12:31
add a comment |
up vote
22
down vote
An excellent question! Without diving too deep into the theory, let's start with a few basic terms.
The "signal" that an antenna is receiving or transmitting is called an electromagnetic wave. This is exactly the same type of wave as light. It is just that the our eyes are sensitive to a narrow range of frequencies that we call light. Electromagnetic waves that are lower in frequency behave exactly the same but we cannot see them. These lower frequencies are generally called RF (radio frequencies). Antennas are used to radiate (transmit) and receive electromagnetic RF signals.
The cable or wire that goes between the antenna and a receiver or transmitter is called a transmission line. We use this term even if the cable is simply used for receiving purposes. A transmission line is specifically designed to not radiate an electromagnetic wave but only transport it from one end of the transmission line to the other. There are several types of construction that can meet this requirement but you are probably most familiar with coaxial cable - the same type of cable that is used for "cable TV".
In the case of the coaxial cable, the outer shield keeps the electromagnetic wave contained between the outer shield and the inner conductor. And as it does so, the electromagnetic wave moves from one end of the cable to the other.
The device that generates the electromagnetic wave is called the source. This could be a transmitter or, when receiving a signal, it is the antenna. At the other end of the transmission line is the load. When transmitting, the antenna is considered the load and when receiving it is the receiver that is the load. By convention, the electromagnetic wave travels from the source end to the load end.
So now armed with these few terms, we can restate your question as: Why isn't the transmission line included as part of the antenna when accounting for the length of the antenna?
The simple answer is to realize that an antenna is specifically designed to receive or radiate electromagnetic waves. And you are correct that the dimensions of the antenna play a key role in its overall performance. But now contrast this to the transmission line that is specifically designed to not radiate electromagnetic waves.
We can draw a comparison here to a garden hose and a sprinkler. The garden hose is specifically designed to transport the water from one end to the other without leaking any of it along the way (although I have a few hoses that seem not to have gotten that memo). The sprinkler, on the other hand, is specifically designed to "leak" water in a very specific pattern and volume.
I hope that is the level of answer you were expecting. Feel free to use the comments to ask for any clarifications or additional depth.
6
Love the garden hose / sprinkler analogy, it made things so clear!
– Thomas
Nov 7 at 12:31
add a comment |
up vote
22
down vote
up vote
22
down vote
An excellent question! Without diving too deep into the theory, let's start with a few basic terms.
The "signal" that an antenna is receiving or transmitting is called an electromagnetic wave. This is exactly the same type of wave as light. It is just that the our eyes are sensitive to a narrow range of frequencies that we call light. Electromagnetic waves that are lower in frequency behave exactly the same but we cannot see them. These lower frequencies are generally called RF (radio frequencies). Antennas are used to radiate (transmit) and receive electromagnetic RF signals.
The cable or wire that goes between the antenna and a receiver or transmitter is called a transmission line. We use this term even if the cable is simply used for receiving purposes. A transmission line is specifically designed to not radiate an electromagnetic wave but only transport it from one end of the transmission line to the other. There are several types of construction that can meet this requirement but you are probably most familiar with coaxial cable - the same type of cable that is used for "cable TV".
In the case of the coaxial cable, the outer shield keeps the electromagnetic wave contained between the outer shield and the inner conductor. And as it does so, the electromagnetic wave moves from one end of the cable to the other.
The device that generates the electromagnetic wave is called the source. This could be a transmitter or, when receiving a signal, it is the antenna. At the other end of the transmission line is the load. When transmitting, the antenna is considered the load and when receiving it is the receiver that is the load. By convention, the electromagnetic wave travels from the source end to the load end.
So now armed with these few terms, we can restate your question as: Why isn't the transmission line included as part of the antenna when accounting for the length of the antenna?
The simple answer is to realize that an antenna is specifically designed to receive or radiate electromagnetic waves. And you are correct that the dimensions of the antenna play a key role in its overall performance. But now contrast this to the transmission line that is specifically designed to not radiate electromagnetic waves.
We can draw a comparison here to a garden hose and a sprinkler. The garden hose is specifically designed to transport the water from one end to the other without leaking any of it along the way (although I have a few hoses that seem not to have gotten that memo). The sprinkler, on the other hand, is specifically designed to "leak" water in a very specific pattern and volume.
I hope that is the level of answer you were expecting. Feel free to use the comments to ask for any clarifications or additional depth.
An excellent question! Without diving too deep into the theory, let's start with a few basic terms.
The "signal" that an antenna is receiving or transmitting is called an electromagnetic wave. This is exactly the same type of wave as light. It is just that the our eyes are sensitive to a narrow range of frequencies that we call light. Electromagnetic waves that are lower in frequency behave exactly the same but we cannot see them. These lower frequencies are generally called RF (radio frequencies). Antennas are used to radiate (transmit) and receive electromagnetic RF signals.
The cable or wire that goes between the antenna and a receiver or transmitter is called a transmission line. We use this term even if the cable is simply used for receiving purposes. A transmission line is specifically designed to not radiate an electromagnetic wave but only transport it from one end of the transmission line to the other. There are several types of construction that can meet this requirement but you are probably most familiar with coaxial cable - the same type of cable that is used for "cable TV".
In the case of the coaxial cable, the outer shield keeps the electromagnetic wave contained between the outer shield and the inner conductor. And as it does so, the electromagnetic wave moves from one end of the cable to the other.
The device that generates the electromagnetic wave is called the source. This could be a transmitter or, when receiving a signal, it is the antenna. At the other end of the transmission line is the load. When transmitting, the antenna is considered the load and when receiving it is the receiver that is the load. By convention, the electromagnetic wave travels from the source end to the load end.
So now armed with these few terms, we can restate your question as: Why isn't the transmission line included as part of the antenna when accounting for the length of the antenna?
The simple answer is to realize that an antenna is specifically designed to receive or radiate electromagnetic waves. And you are correct that the dimensions of the antenna play a key role in its overall performance. But now contrast this to the transmission line that is specifically designed to not radiate electromagnetic waves.
We can draw a comparison here to a garden hose and a sprinkler. The garden hose is specifically designed to transport the water from one end to the other without leaking any of it along the way (although I have a few hoses that seem not to have gotten that memo). The sprinkler, on the other hand, is specifically designed to "leak" water in a very specific pattern and volume.
I hope that is the level of answer you were expecting. Feel free to use the comments to ask for any clarifications or additional depth.
edited Nov 7 at 12:34
answered Nov 6 at 20:32
Glenn W9IQ
12.8k1741
12.8k1741
6
Love the garden hose / sprinkler analogy, it made things so clear!
– Thomas
Nov 7 at 12:31
add a comment |
6
Love the garden hose / sprinkler analogy, it made things so clear!
– Thomas
Nov 7 at 12:31
6
6
Love the garden hose / sprinkler analogy, it made things so clear!
– Thomas
Nov 7 at 12:31
Love the garden hose / sprinkler analogy, it made things so clear!
– Thomas
Nov 7 at 12:31
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Antennas are often resonant. Their physical dimensions are adjusted so standing waves develop at a particular frequency, like a bell rings at a particular tone.
Feedlines are not usually resonant. Usually an engineer ensures the end of the feedline is terminated (by the antenna or the radio) with an impedance that matches the characteristic impedance of the feedline. This ensures that as a wavefront reaches the end of the feedline it's fully absorbed and none of it is reflected back. Since there are ideally no reflections of energy in this configuration, resonance can't happen.
There are of course counterexamples. Non-resonant antennas exist in some applications, especially when the antenna must be physically small, or in receive-only applications where efficiency isn't as important. And transmission lines can be used to introduce controlled phase shifts into the signal, for example to make phased arrays or matching networks, and for this they must be cut to specific lengths that depend on frequency.
1
Just to note that a non-resonant antenna will radiate almost all of the r-f energy that flows along its conductor(s) - as effectively as a resonant antenna.
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 14:36
1
Theoretically, assuming no losses, sure. In practice engineers make antennas resonant if there isn't a reason to do otherwise since this minimizes reactive power, and associated losses in real systems.
– Phil Frost - W8II
Nov 7 at 14:38
2
However it can be more practical to make the antenna system resonant, rather than its radiating conductor(s).
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 15:15
1
Few, if any AM broadcast towers are naturally resonant (j = 0 ohms), with the real term of their input Z = 50 ohms. Almost always they need/use a network at their feedpoint to match them to the Zo of the transmission line connected there.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 15:42
1
To elaborate, a naturally resonant (j0) AM broadcast radiator of slightly less than 90 degrees height might have a radiation resistance of about 33 ohms. Without a matching network, it would need to be driven against an r-f ground connection having a resistance of 17 ohms in order to present a 1:1 SWR match to a 50 ohm line connected to its input terminals. No broadcast station would tolerate that loss in system radiation efficiency, and in almost all cases the FCC would not even permit or license it.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 16:17
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
Antennas are often resonant. Their physical dimensions are adjusted so standing waves develop at a particular frequency, like a bell rings at a particular tone.
Feedlines are not usually resonant. Usually an engineer ensures the end of the feedline is terminated (by the antenna or the radio) with an impedance that matches the characteristic impedance of the feedline. This ensures that as a wavefront reaches the end of the feedline it's fully absorbed and none of it is reflected back. Since there are ideally no reflections of energy in this configuration, resonance can't happen.
There are of course counterexamples. Non-resonant antennas exist in some applications, especially when the antenna must be physically small, or in receive-only applications where efficiency isn't as important. And transmission lines can be used to introduce controlled phase shifts into the signal, for example to make phased arrays or matching networks, and for this they must be cut to specific lengths that depend on frequency.
1
Just to note that a non-resonant antenna will radiate almost all of the r-f energy that flows along its conductor(s) - as effectively as a resonant antenna.
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 14:36
1
Theoretically, assuming no losses, sure. In practice engineers make antennas resonant if there isn't a reason to do otherwise since this minimizes reactive power, and associated losses in real systems.
– Phil Frost - W8II
Nov 7 at 14:38
2
However it can be more practical to make the antenna system resonant, rather than its radiating conductor(s).
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 15:15
1
Few, if any AM broadcast towers are naturally resonant (j = 0 ohms), with the real term of their input Z = 50 ohms. Almost always they need/use a network at their feedpoint to match them to the Zo of the transmission line connected there.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 15:42
1
To elaborate, a naturally resonant (j0) AM broadcast radiator of slightly less than 90 degrees height might have a radiation resistance of about 33 ohms. Without a matching network, it would need to be driven against an r-f ground connection having a resistance of 17 ohms in order to present a 1:1 SWR match to a 50 ohm line connected to its input terminals. No broadcast station would tolerate that loss in system radiation efficiency, and in almost all cases the FCC would not even permit or license it.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 16:17
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
Antennas are often resonant. Their physical dimensions are adjusted so standing waves develop at a particular frequency, like a bell rings at a particular tone.
Feedlines are not usually resonant. Usually an engineer ensures the end of the feedline is terminated (by the antenna or the radio) with an impedance that matches the characteristic impedance of the feedline. This ensures that as a wavefront reaches the end of the feedline it's fully absorbed and none of it is reflected back. Since there are ideally no reflections of energy in this configuration, resonance can't happen.
There are of course counterexamples. Non-resonant antennas exist in some applications, especially when the antenna must be physically small, or in receive-only applications where efficiency isn't as important. And transmission lines can be used to introduce controlled phase shifts into the signal, for example to make phased arrays or matching networks, and for this they must be cut to specific lengths that depend on frequency.
Antennas are often resonant. Their physical dimensions are adjusted so standing waves develop at a particular frequency, like a bell rings at a particular tone.
Feedlines are not usually resonant. Usually an engineer ensures the end of the feedline is terminated (by the antenna or the radio) with an impedance that matches the characteristic impedance of the feedline. This ensures that as a wavefront reaches the end of the feedline it's fully absorbed and none of it is reflected back. Since there are ideally no reflections of energy in this configuration, resonance can't happen.
There are of course counterexamples. Non-resonant antennas exist in some applications, especially when the antenna must be physically small, or in receive-only applications where efficiency isn't as important. And transmission lines can be used to introduce controlled phase shifts into the signal, for example to make phased arrays or matching networks, and for this they must be cut to specific lengths that depend on frequency.
edited Nov 6 at 21:10
Mike Waters♦
2,6572533
2,6572533
answered Nov 6 at 20:14
Phil Frost - W8II
26.6k146114
26.6k146114
1
Just to note that a non-resonant antenna will radiate almost all of the r-f energy that flows along its conductor(s) - as effectively as a resonant antenna.
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 14:36
1
Theoretically, assuming no losses, sure. In practice engineers make antennas resonant if there isn't a reason to do otherwise since this minimizes reactive power, and associated losses in real systems.
– Phil Frost - W8II
Nov 7 at 14:38
2
However it can be more practical to make the antenna system resonant, rather than its radiating conductor(s).
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 15:15
1
Few, if any AM broadcast towers are naturally resonant (j = 0 ohms), with the real term of their input Z = 50 ohms. Almost always they need/use a network at their feedpoint to match them to the Zo of the transmission line connected there.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 15:42
1
To elaborate, a naturally resonant (j0) AM broadcast radiator of slightly less than 90 degrees height might have a radiation resistance of about 33 ohms. Without a matching network, it would need to be driven against an r-f ground connection having a resistance of 17 ohms in order to present a 1:1 SWR match to a 50 ohm line connected to its input terminals. No broadcast station would tolerate that loss in system radiation efficiency, and in almost all cases the FCC would not even permit or license it.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 16:17
|
show 4 more comments
1
Just to note that a non-resonant antenna will radiate almost all of the r-f energy that flows along its conductor(s) - as effectively as a resonant antenna.
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 14:36
1
Theoretically, assuming no losses, sure. In practice engineers make antennas resonant if there isn't a reason to do otherwise since this minimizes reactive power, and associated losses in real systems.
– Phil Frost - W8II
Nov 7 at 14:38
2
However it can be more practical to make the antenna system resonant, rather than its radiating conductor(s).
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 15:15
1
Few, if any AM broadcast towers are naturally resonant (j = 0 ohms), with the real term of their input Z = 50 ohms. Almost always they need/use a network at their feedpoint to match them to the Zo of the transmission line connected there.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 15:42
1
To elaborate, a naturally resonant (j0) AM broadcast radiator of slightly less than 90 degrees height might have a radiation resistance of about 33 ohms. Without a matching network, it would need to be driven against an r-f ground connection having a resistance of 17 ohms in order to present a 1:1 SWR match to a 50 ohm line connected to its input terminals. No broadcast station would tolerate that loss in system radiation efficiency, and in almost all cases the FCC would not even permit or license it.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 16:17
1
1
Just to note that a non-resonant antenna will radiate almost all of the r-f energy that flows along its conductor(s) - as effectively as a resonant antenna.
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 14:36
Just to note that a non-resonant antenna will radiate almost all of the r-f energy that flows along its conductor(s) - as effectively as a resonant antenna.
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 14:36
1
1
Theoretically, assuming no losses, sure. In practice engineers make antennas resonant if there isn't a reason to do otherwise since this minimizes reactive power, and associated losses in real systems.
– Phil Frost - W8II
Nov 7 at 14:38
Theoretically, assuming no losses, sure. In practice engineers make antennas resonant if there isn't a reason to do otherwise since this minimizes reactive power, and associated losses in real systems.
– Phil Frost - W8II
Nov 7 at 14:38
2
2
However it can be more practical to make the antenna system resonant, rather than its radiating conductor(s).
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 15:15
However it can be more practical to make the antenna system resonant, rather than its radiating conductor(s).
– Richard Fry
Nov 7 at 15:15
1
1
Few, if any AM broadcast towers are naturally resonant (j = 0 ohms), with the real term of their input Z = 50 ohms. Almost always they need/use a network at their feedpoint to match them to the Zo of the transmission line connected there.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 15:42
Few, if any AM broadcast towers are naturally resonant (j = 0 ohms), with the real term of their input Z = 50 ohms. Almost always they need/use a network at their feedpoint to match them to the Zo of the transmission line connected there.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 15:42
1
1
To elaborate, a naturally resonant (j0) AM broadcast radiator of slightly less than 90 degrees height might have a radiation resistance of about 33 ohms. Without a matching network, it would need to be driven against an r-f ground connection having a resistance of 17 ohms in order to present a 1:1 SWR match to a 50 ohm line connected to its input terminals. No broadcast station would tolerate that loss in system radiation efficiency, and in almost all cases the FCC would not even permit or license it.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 16:17
To elaborate, a naturally resonant (j0) AM broadcast radiator of slightly less than 90 degrees height might have a radiation resistance of about 33 ohms. Without a matching network, it would need to be driven against an r-f ground connection having a resistance of 17 ohms in order to present a 1:1 SWR match to a 50 ohm line connected to its input terminals. No broadcast station would tolerate that loss in system radiation efficiency, and in almost all cases the FCC would not even permit or license it.
– Richard Fry
Nov 9 at 16:17
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RF signals have no consciousness so they really don't know anything. All they can do is follow the laws of physics. When a signal is traveling in a transmission line conductor there is another signal of equal amplitude and opposite direction (phase) traveling in the other conductor close by. The RF fields from those two signals (almost) cancel so no (or very little) energy is lost to radiation from a transmission line. But suddenly those two signals split up and go off at right angles to each other at the dipole feedpoint so there is no other field close by to cancel the antenna's fields. Both signals are now free to radiate their fields as RF signals propagating through the air - and they do just that. When in the transmission line, the RF signals in each wire are traveling in opposite directions, i.e. are differential. But when one wire takes a 90 degree left hand turn and the other takes a 90 degree right hand turn, it results in the two currents flowing in the same direction, i.e. changes them to radiating antenna currents.
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up vote
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RF signals have no consciousness so they really don't know anything. All they can do is follow the laws of physics. When a signal is traveling in a transmission line conductor there is another signal of equal amplitude and opposite direction (phase) traveling in the other conductor close by. The RF fields from those two signals (almost) cancel so no (or very little) energy is lost to radiation from a transmission line. But suddenly those two signals split up and go off at right angles to each other at the dipole feedpoint so there is no other field close by to cancel the antenna's fields. Both signals are now free to radiate their fields as RF signals propagating through the air - and they do just that. When in the transmission line, the RF signals in each wire are traveling in opposite directions, i.e. are differential. But when one wire takes a 90 degree left hand turn and the other takes a 90 degree right hand turn, it results in the two currents flowing in the same direction, i.e. changes them to radiating antenna currents.
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up vote
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up vote
4
down vote
RF signals have no consciousness so they really don't know anything. All they can do is follow the laws of physics. When a signal is traveling in a transmission line conductor there is another signal of equal amplitude and opposite direction (phase) traveling in the other conductor close by. The RF fields from those two signals (almost) cancel so no (or very little) energy is lost to radiation from a transmission line. But suddenly those two signals split up and go off at right angles to each other at the dipole feedpoint so there is no other field close by to cancel the antenna's fields. Both signals are now free to radiate their fields as RF signals propagating through the air - and they do just that. When in the transmission line, the RF signals in each wire are traveling in opposite directions, i.e. are differential. But when one wire takes a 90 degree left hand turn and the other takes a 90 degree right hand turn, it results in the two currents flowing in the same direction, i.e. changes them to radiating antenna currents.
New contributor
RF signals have no consciousness so they really don't know anything. All they can do is follow the laws of physics. When a signal is traveling in a transmission line conductor there is another signal of equal amplitude and opposite direction (phase) traveling in the other conductor close by. The RF fields from those two signals (almost) cancel so no (or very little) energy is lost to radiation from a transmission line. But suddenly those two signals split up and go off at right angles to each other at the dipole feedpoint so there is no other field close by to cancel the antenna's fields. Both signals are now free to radiate their fields as RF signals propagating through the air - and they do just that. When in the transmission line, the RF signals in each wire are traveling in opposite directions, i.e. are differential. But when one wire takes a 90 degree left hand turn and the other takes a 90 degree right hand turn, it results in the two currents flowing in the same direction, i.e. changes them to radiating antenna currents.
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edited yesterday
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answered Nov 11 at 23:34
w5dxp
1864
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"Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?" It is not so easy to point to the misunderstanding here. Surely the length of the feeder cable matters in some cases. In the first place, sensors for E-fields or H-fields are often described as antennas (loop antennas or whip antennas.) That is misleading because very small (in wavelength) antennas depend on using specific types of amplifiers to provide wideband coverage. For transmit they require VERY special low noise matching that makes the bandwidth VERY limited. Many antennas used by amateurs actually use the feed line as the radiator. If there is a common mode current, (the currents on the two conductors are not exactly equal) the cable is radiating. (Or usually more important, picking up interference.)
An antenna cable that is perfectly well installed to not radiate at all might have a length that provides an impedance match to the antenna so cable length is sometimes important.
I think the "simple" question does not have a simple answer. With a purist attitude, the transmission cable is "ideal" and then its length does not matter. The "ideal" antenna is matched to the cable at the frequency of operation and then the cable length does not matter. There is a confusion between field sensors (active devices) and antennas. In real life nothing is ideal. As I understand it, most operators have non-ideal antennas that suffer from pick-up of local E- or H- fields because of inadequate means to force common mode currents on feed cables to be zero.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
"Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?" It is not so easy to point to the misunderstanding here. Surely the length of the feeder cable matters in some cases. In the first place, sensors for E-fields or H-fields are often described as antennas (loop antennas or whip antennas.) That is misleading because very small (in wavelength) antennas depend on using specific types of amplifiers to provide wideband coverage. For transmit they require VERY special low noise matching that makes the bandwidth VERY limited. Many antennas used by amateurs actually use the feed line as the radiator. If there is a common mode current, (the currents on the two conductors are not exactly equal) the cable is radiating. (Or usually more important, picking up interference.)
An antenna cable that is perfectly well installed to not radiate at all might have a length that provides an impedance match to the antenna so cable length is sometimes important.
I think the "simple" question does not have a simple answer. With a purist attitude, the transmission cable is "ideal" and then its length does not matter. The "ideal" antenna is matched to the cable at the frequency of operation and then the cable length does not matter. There is a confusion between field sensors (active devices) and antennas. In real life nothing is ideal. As I understand it, most operators have non-ideal antennas that suffer from pick-up of local E- or H- fields because of inadequate means to force common mode currents on feed cables to be zero.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
"Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?" It is not so easy to point to the misunderstanding here. Surely the length of the feeder cable matters in some cases. In the first place, sensors for E-fields or H-fields are often described as antennas (loop antennas or whip antennas.) That is misleading because very small (in wavelength) antennas depend on using specific types of amplifiers to provide wideband coverage. For transmit they require VERY special low noise matching that makes the bandwidth VERY limited. Many antennas used by amateurs actually use the feed line as the radiator. If there is a common mode current, (the currents on the two conductors are not exactly equal) the cable is radiating. (Or usually more important, picking up interference.)
An antenna cable that is perfectly well installed to not radiate at all might have a length that provides an impedance match to the antenna so cable length is sometimes important.
I think the "simple" question does not have a simple answer. With a purist attitude, the transmission cable is "ideal" and then its length does not matter. The "ideal" antenna is matched to the cable at the frequency of operation and then the cable length does not matter. There is a confusion between field sensors (active devices) and antennas. In real life nothing is ideal. As I understand it, most operators have non-ideal antennas that suffer from pick-up of local E- or H- fields because of inadequate means to force common mode currents on feed cables to be zero.
"Why doesn't the length of the cable count in addition to the length of the antenna?" It is not so easy to point to the misunderstanding here. Surely the length of the feeder cable matters in some cases. In the first place, sensors for E-fields or H-fields are often described as antennas (loop antennas or whip antennas.) That is misleading because very small (in wavelength) antennas depend on using specific types of amplifiers to provide wideband coverage. For transmit they require VERY special low noise matching that makes the bandwidth VERY limited. Many antennas used by amateurs actually use the feed line as the radiator. If there is a common mode current, (the currents on the two conductors are not exactly equal) the cable is radiating. (Or usually more important, picking up interference.)
An antenna cable that is perfectly well installed to not radiate at all might have a length that provides an impedance match to the antenna so cable length is sometimes important.
I think the "simple" question does not have a simple answer. With a purist attitude, the transmission cable is "ideal" and then its length does not matter. The "ideal" antenna is matched to the cable at the frequency of operation and then the cable length does not matter. There is a confusion between field sensors (active devices) and antennas. In real life nothing is ideal. As I understand it, most operators have non-ideal antennas that suffer from pick-up of local E- or H- fields because of inadequate means to force common mode currents on feed cables to be zero.
answered yesterday
sm5bsz
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Coax cable in the top answer is what confines the signal to a properly matched antenna. Because in theory the atenna and the cable should be seen as a continous conduit and has the ability to influence its surroundings.
Short Answer:
Because we want it to.
Long Answer:
Contary to popular belief an insulator at some point becomes an conductor. Your cable if enough engery pumped through, looses its ability to contain and it becomes a coductor and adds to lenght of the atenna.
The reason why i bring up impedence is that, lets say i have a diffrence of impedence between the antenna and the transmiter. The signal needs to have a path of least resistance to get to the "interface"
The stuff that we want is not a direct radiation of said signal but rather the result of tha magnetic power that is unduced in the antenna that is the result of the action that is going inside the atenna, to put it in simple terms.
The reason is that the coax is seen as a insolator is because, the radiation is not powerfull enough to induce a current in the coax past the alluminum jacket that is present in the cable.
Mike is correct but a concept is missing is called inductance. You do need an inductor to shift the resonance of antenna, however,
combined with the fact that the antenna by virtue of it inducting the magnetic feilds has the property of beimg able to translate the magetic feild by forcing the electrons to move and resonate with the incoming signal inside the receiver antenna.
Impedance is needed to talk about in discusing an antenna design because in reality the signal does not see but rather It just moves along in a path with least resistance.
In summary:
The reason why the singal sees the antenna lenght rather than the cable combined with the antenna lenght,
A. the cables ability to prevent it from being a conductor being that the sleaving keeps the signal from leaking and influencing the outside.
B. it is impedance matched so the signal can influence the antenna with the least resistance.
C. Antennas are designed that the concentration of energy is at that point.
Going Back to mine and orginal Analogy
Your cable is like a water hose and your water is the signal. at first when you dont put a nozzel on the end and turn on the water the water foutains, this is what a signal looks like.
You add a nozzel which is your antenna you can now focus the singal to its destination.
add a comment |
up vote
-2
down vote
Coax cable in the top answer is what confines the signal to a properly matched antenna. Because in theory the atenna and the cable should be seen as a continous conduit and has the ability to influence its surroundings.
Short Answer:
Because we want it to.
Long Answer:
Contary to popular belief an insulator at some point becomes an conductor. Your cable if enough engery pumped through, looses its ability to contain and it becomes a coductor and adds to lenght of the atenna.
The reason why i bring up impedence is that, lets say i have a diffrence of impedence between the antenna and the transmiter. The signal needs to have a path of least resistance to get to the "interface"
The stuff that we want is not a direct radiation of said signal but rather the result of tha magnetic power that is unduced in the antenna that is the result of the action that is going inside the atenna, to put it in simple terms.
The reason is that the coax is seen as a insolator is because, the radiation is not powerfull enough to induce a current in the coax past the alluminum jacket that is present in the cable.
Mike is correct but a concept is missing is called inductance. You do need an inductor to shift the resonance of antenna, however,
combined with the fact that the antenna by virtue of it inducting the magnetic feilds has the property of beimg able to translate the magetic feild by forcing the electrons to move and resonate with the incoming signal inside the receiver antenna.
Impedance is needed to talk about in discusing an antenna design because in reality the signal does not see but rather It just moves along in a path with least resistance.
In summary:
The reason why the singal sees the antenna lenght rather than the cable combined with the antenna lenght,
A. the cables ability to prevent it from being a conductor being that the sleaving keeps the signal from leaking and influencing the outside.
B. it is impedance matched so the signal can influence the antenna with the least resistance.
C. Antennas are designed that the concentration of energy is at that point.
Going Back to mine and orginal Analogy
Your cable is like a water hose and your water is the signal. at first when you dont put a nozzel on the end and turn on the water the water foutains, this is what a signal looks like.
You add a nozzel which is your antenna you can now focus the singal to its destination.
add a comment |
up vote
-2
down vote
up vote
-2
down vote
Coax cable in the top answer is what confines the signal to a properly matched antenna. Because in theory the atenna and the cable should be seen as a continous conduit and has the ability to influence its surroundings.
Short Answer:
Because we want it to.
Long Answer:
Contary to popular belief an insulator at some point becomes an conductor. Your cable if enough engery pumped through, looses its ability to contain and it becomes a coductor and adds to lenght of the atenna.
The reason why i bring up impedence is that, lets say i have a diffrence of impedence between the antenna and the transmiter. The signal needs to have a path of least resistance to get to the "interface"
The stuff that we want is not a direct radiation of said signal but rather the result of tha magnetic power that is unduced in the antenna that is the result of the action that is going inside the atenna, to put it in simple terms.
The reason is that the coax is seen as a insolator is because, the radiation is not powerfull enough to induce a current in the coax past the alluminum jacket that is present in the cable.
Mike is correct but a concept is missing is called inductance. You do need an inductor to shift the resonance of antenna, however,
combined with the fact that the antenna by virtue of it inducting the magnetic feilds has the property of beimg able to translate the magetic feild by forcing the electrons to move and resonate with the incoming signal inside the receiver antenna.
Impedance is needed to talk about in discusing an antenna design because in reality the signal does not see but rather It just moves along in a path with least resistance.
In summary:
The reason why the singal sees the antenna lenght rather than the cable combined with the antenna lenght,
A. the cables ability to prevent it from being a conductor being that the sleaving keeps the signal from leaking and influencing the outside.
B. it is impedance matched so the signal can influence the antenna with the least resistance.
C. Antennas are designed that the concentration of energy is at that point.
Going Back to mine and orginal Analogy
Your cable is like a water hose and your water is the signal. at first when you dont put a nozzel on the end and turn on the water the water foutains, this is what a signal looks like.
You add a nozzel which is your antenna you can now focus the singal to its destination.
Coax cable in the top answer is what confines the signal to a properly matched antenna. Because in theory the atenna and the cable should be seen as a continous conduit and has the ability to influence its surroundings.
Short Answer:
Because we want it to.
Long Answer:
Contary to popular belief an insulator at some point becomes an conductor. Your cable if enough engery pumped through, looses its ability to contain and it becomes a coductor and adds to lenght of the atenna.
The reason why i bring up impedence is that, lets say i have a diffrence of impedence between the antenna and the transmiter. The signal needs to have a path of least resistance to get to the "interface"
The stuff that we want is not a direct radiation of said signal but rather the result of tha magnetic power that is unduced in the antenna that is the result of the action that is going inside the atenna, to put it in simple terms.
The reason is that the coax is seen as a insolator is because, the radiation is not powerfull enough to induce a current in the coax past the alluminum jacket that is present in the cable.
Mike is correct but a concept is missing is called inductance. You do need an inductor to shift the resonance of antenna, however,
combined with the fact that the antenna by virtue of it inducting the magnetic feilds has the property of beimg able to translate the magetic feild by forcing the electrons to move and resonate with the incoming signal inside the receiver antenna.
Impedance is needed to talk about in discusing an antenna design because in reality the signal does not see but rather It just moves along in a path with least resistance.
In summary:
The reason why the singal sees the antenna lenght rather than the cable combined with the antenna lenght,
A. the cables ability to prevent it from being a conductor being that the sleaving keeps the signal from leaking and influencing the outside.
B. it is impedance matched so the signal can influence the antenna with the least resistance.
C. Antennas are designed that the concentration of energy is at that point.
Going Back to mine and orginal Analogy
Your cable is like a water hose and your water is the signal. at first when you dont put a nozzel on the end and turn on the water the water foutains, this is what a signal looks like.
You add a nozzel which is your antenna you can now focus the singal to its destination.
edited Nov 12 at 19:59
answered Nov 6 at 20:31
Ben Madison
405
405
add a comment |
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