Does the Inquisitive Rogue's Ear for Deceit feature mesh with their Insightful Fighting feature?











up vote
2
down vote

favorite












There are two features that an Inquisitive Rogue (XGtE, p. 45-46) gains:




Ear for Deceit



When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you develop a talent for picking out lies. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.




and




Insightful Fighting



At 3rd level, you gain the ability to decipher an opponent’s tactics and develop a counter to them. As a bonus action, you can make a Wisdom (Insight) check against a creature you can see that isn’t incapacitated, contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check. If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don’t have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it.




When invoking Insightful Fighting, does the bonus from Ear for Deceit apply to the Insight roll? I feel as though this might be a bit too strong: if my character has a +2 to Wisdom and takes Expertise in Insight, then this check would have a minimum of 8 + 2 + 4 = 14 at the 3rd level.



However, the use of language




...determine whether a creature is lying...




and




...contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check,




where page 178 of the Player's Handbook states




Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions




makes it feel as though Ear for Deceit ought to apply to Insightful Fighting.



Is an Inquisitive rogue making an Insight check for Insightful Fighting able to apply the benefit of Ear of Deceit to that roll?










share|improve this question




























    up vote
    2
    down vote

    favorite












    There are two features that an Inquisitive Rogue (XGtE, p. 45-46) gains:




    Ear for Deceit



    When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you develop a talent for picking out lies. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.




    and




    Insightful Fighting



    At 3rd level, you gain the ability to decipher an opponent’s tactics and develop a counter to them. As a bonus action, you can make a Wisdom (Insight) check against a creature you can see that isn’t incapacitated, contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check. If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don’t have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it.




    When invoking Insightful Fighting, does the bonus from Ear for Deceit apply to the Insight roll? I feel as though this might be a bit too strong: if my character has a +2 to Wisdom and takes Expertise in Insight, then this check would have a minimum of 8 + 2 + 4 = 14 at the 3rd level.



    However, the use of language




    ...determine whether a creature is lying...




    and




    ...contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check,




    where page 178 of the Player's Handbook states




    Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions




    makes it feel as though Ear for Deceit ought to apply to Insightful Fighting.



    Is an Inquisitive rogue making an Insight check for Insightful Fighting able to apply the benefit of Ear of Deceit to that roll?










    share|improve this question


























      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite











      There are two features that an Inquisitive Rogue (XGtE, p. 45-46) gains:




      Ear for Deceit



      When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you develop a talent for picking out lies. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.




      and




      Insightful Fighting



      At 3rd level, you gain the ability to decipher an opponent’s tactics and develop a counter to them. As a bonus action, you can make a Wisdom (Insight) check against a creature you can see that isn’t incapacitated, contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check. If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don’t have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it.




      When invoking Insightful Fighting, does the bonus from Ear for Deceit apply to the Insight roll? I feel as though this might be a bit too strong: if my character has a +2 to Wisdom and takes Expertise in Insight, then this check would have a minimum of 8 + 2 + 4 = 14 at the 3rd level.



      However, the use of language




      ...determine whether a creature is lying...




      and




      ...contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check,




      where page 178 of the Player's Handbook states




      Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions




      makes it feel as though Ear for Deceit ought to apply to Insightful Fighting.



      Is an Inquisitive rogue making an Insight check for Insightful Fighting able to apply the benefit of Ear of Deceit to that roll?










      share|improve this question















      There are two features that an Inquisitive Rogue (XGtE, p. 45-46) gains:




      Ear for Deceit



      When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you develop a talent for picking out lies. Whenever you make a Wisdom (Insight) check to determine whether a creature is lying, treat a roll of 7 or lower on the d20 as an 8.




      and




      Insightful Fighting



      At 3rd level, you gain the ability to decipher an opponent’s tactics and develop a counter to them. As a bonus action, you can make a Wisdom (Insight) check against a creature you can see that isn’t incapacitated, contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check. If you succeed, you can use your Sneak Attack against that target even if you don’t have advantage on the attack roll, but not if you have disadvantage on it.




      When invoking Insightful Fighting, does the bonus from Ear for Deceit apply to the Insight roll? I feel as though this might be a bit too strong: if my character has a +2 to Wisdom and takes Expertise in Insight, then this check would have a minimum of 8 + 2 + 4 = 14 at the 3rd level.



      However, the use of language




      ...determine whether a creature is lying...




      and




      ...contested by the target’s Charisma (Deception) check,




      where page 178 of the Player's Handbook states




      Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions




      makes it feel as though Ear for Deceit ought to apply to Insightful Fighting.



      Is an Inquisitive rogue making an Insight check for Insightful Fighting able to apply the benefit of Ear of Deceit to that roll?







      dnd-5e class-feature skills rogue






      share|improve this question















      share|improve this question













      share|improve this question




      share|improve this question








      edited Nov 7 at 4:22









      V2Blast

      17.9k248113




      17.9k248113










      asked Nov 7 at 2:33









      Santana Afton

      385310




      385310






















          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes

















          up vote
          15
          down vote



          accepted










          You don't benefit from Eye for Deceit when using Insightful Fighting.



          If Insightful Fighting involved figuring out whether someone is lying, it would say so. In this case, Deception is a measure of the ability of the target to disguise its tactics. This is not lying in a conventional sense. 5th edition is made to be read in plain English and if this non-traditional usage of the word lying was intended to be included it would say so. In general, features say what they mean.






          share|improve this answer





















          • Awesome. Thanks for the clarification!
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 3:14


















          up vote
          5
          down vote













          Ear for Deceit does not work with Insightful Fighting



          The rules for Deception checks state:




          Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions. This deception can encompass everything from misleading others through ambiguity to telling outright lies. Typical situations include trying to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, earn money through gambling, pass yourself off in a disguise, dull someone's suspicions with false assurances, or maintain a straight face while telling a blatant lie.




          Lying is one way to "convincingly hide the truth", but not the only way. For example, you could "mislead others through ambiguity" or "pass yourself off in a disguise" without ever lying.



          Insightful fighting is just another example among many of a Deception check that does not involve lying.



          However, it's worth noting that Reliable Talent (which has a similar effect to Ear for Deceit) does work with Insightful Fighting.






          share|improve this answer























          • Thanks for the answer (+1) and for catching my typo. I've edited my post to reflect that.
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 4:11











          Your Answer





          StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
          return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
          StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
          StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["\$", "\$"]]);
          });
          });
          }, "mathjax-editing");

          StackExchange.ready(function() {
          var channelOptions = {
          tags: "".split(" "),
          id: "122"
          };
          initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

          StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
          // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
          if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
          StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
          createEditor();
          });
          }
          else {
          createEditor();
          }
          });

          function createEditor() {
          StackExchange.prepareEditor({
          heartbeatType: 'answer',
          convertImagesToLinks: false,
          noModals: true,
          showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
          reputationToPostImages: null,
          bindNavPrevention: true,
          postfix: "",
          imageUploader: {
          brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
          contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
          allowUrls: true
          },
          noCode: true, onDemand: true,
          discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
          ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
          });


          }
          });














           

          draft saved


          draft discarded


















          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f135090%2fdoes-the-inquisitive-rogues-ear-for-deceit-feature-mesh-with-their-insightful-f%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown

























          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes








          2 Answers
          2






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes








          up vote
          15
          down vote



          accepted










          You don't benefit from Eye for Deceit when using Insightful Fighting.



          If Insightful Fighting involved figuring out whether someone is lying, it would say so. In this case, Deception is a measure of the ability of the target to disguise its tactics. This is not lying in a conventional sense. 5th edition is made to be read in plain English and if this non-traditional usage of the word lying was intended to be included it would say so. In general, features say what they mean.






          share|improve this answer





















          • Awesome. Thanks for the clarification!
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 3:14















          up vote
          15
          down vote



          accepted










          You don't benefit from Eye for Deceit when using Insightful Fighting.



          If Insightful Fighting involved figuring out whether someone is lying, it would say so. In this case, Deception is a measure of the ability of the target to disguise its tactics. This is not lying in a conventional sense. 5th edition is made to be read in plain English and if this non-traditional usage of the word lying was intended to be included it would say so. In general, features say what they mean.






          share|improve this answer





















          • Awesome. Thanks for the clarification!
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 3:14













          up vote
          15
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          15
          down vote



          accepted






          You don't benefit from Eye for Deceit when using Insightful Fighting.



          If Insightful Fighting involved figuring out whether someone is lying, it would say so. In this case, Deception is a measure of the ability of the target to disguise its tactics. This is not lying in a conventional sense. 5th edition is made to be read in plain English and if this non-traditional usage of the word lying was intended to be included it would say so. In general, features say what they mean.






          share|improve this answer












          You don't benefit from Eye for Deceit when using Insightful Fighting.



          If Insightful Fighting involved figuring out whether someone is lying, it would say so. In this case, Deception is a measure of the ability of the target to disguise its tactics. This is not lying in a conventional sense. 5th edition is made to be read in plain English and if this non-traditional usage of the word lying was intended to be included it would say so. In general, features say what they mean.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered Nov 7 at 2:51









          David Coffron

          31.3k2108217




          31.3k2108217












          • Awesome. Thanks for the clarification!
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 3:14


















          • Awesome. Thanks for the clarification!
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 3:14
















          Awesome. Thanks for the clarification!
          – Santana Afton
          Nov 7 at 3:14




          Awesome. Thanks for the clarification!
          – Santana Afton
          Nov 7 at 3:14












          up vote
          5
          down vote













          Ear for Deceit does not work with Insightful Fighting



          The rules for Deception checks state:




          Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions. This deception can encompass everything from misleading others through ambiguity to telling outright lies. Typical situations include trying to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, earn money through gambling, pass yourself off in a disguise, dull someone's suspicions with false assurances, or maintain a straight face while telling a blatant lie.




          Lying is one way to "convincingly hide the truth", but not the only way. For example, you could "mislead others through ambiguity" or "pass yourself off in a disguise" without ever lying.



          Insightful fighting is just another example among many of a Deception check that does not involve lying.



          However, it's worth noting that Reliable Talent (which has a similar effect to Ear for Deceit) does work with Insightful Fighting.






          share|improve this answer























          • Thanks for the answer (+1) and for catching my typo. I've edited my post to reflect that.
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 4:11















          up vote
          5
          down vote













          Ear for Deceit does not work with Insightful Fighting



          The rules for Deception checks state:




          Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions. This deception can encompass everything from misleading others through ambiguity to telling outright lies. Typical situations include trying to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, earn money through gambling, pass yourself off in a disguise, dull someone's suspicions with false assurances, or maintain a straight face while telling a blatant lie.




          Lying is one way to "convincingly hide the truth", but not the only way. For example, you could "mislead others through ambiguity" or "pass yourself off in a disguise" without ever lying.



          Insightful fighting is just another example among many of a Deception check that does not involve lying.



          However, it's worth noting that Reliable Talent (which has a similar effect to Ear for Deceit) does work with Insightful Fighting.






          share|improve this answer























          • Thanks for the answer (+1) and for catching my typo. I've edited my post to reflect that.
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 4:11













          up vote
          5
          down vote










          up vote
          5
          down vote









          Ear for Deceit does not work with Insightful Fighting



          The rules for Deception checks state:




          Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions. This deception can encompass everything from misleading others through ambiguity to telling outright lies. Typical situations include trying to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, earn money through gambling, pass yourself off in a disguise, dull someone's suspicions with false assurances, or maintain a straight face while telling a blatant lie.




          Lying is one way to "convincingly hide the truth", but not the only way. For example, you could "mislead others through ambiguity" or "pass yourself off in a disguise" without ever lying.



          Insightful fighting is just another example among many of a Deception check that does not involve lying.



          However, it's worth noting that Reliable Talent (which has a similar effect to Ear for Deceit) does work with Insightful Fighting.






          share|improve this answer














          Ear for Deceit does not work with Insightful Fighting



          The rules for Deception checks state:




          Your Charisma (Deception) check determines whether you can convincingly hide the truth, either verbally or through your actions. This deception can encompass everything from misleading others through ambiguity to telling outright lies. Typical situations include trying to fast-talk a guard, con a merchant, earn money through gambling, pass yourself off in a disguise, dull someone's suspicions with false assurances, or maintain a straight face while telling a blatant lie.




          Lying is one way to "convincingly hide the truth", but not the only way. For example, you could "mislead others through ambiguity" or "pass yourself off in a disguise" without ever lying.



          Insightful fighting is just another example among many of a Deception check that does not involve lying.



          However, it's worth noting that Reliable Talent (which has a similar effect to Ear for Deceit) does work with Insightful Fighting.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Nov 7 at 4:12

























          answered Nov 7 at 3:14









          Ruse

          5,207945




          5,207945












          • Thanks for the answer (+1) and for catching my typo. I've edited my post to reflect that.
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 4:11


















          • Thanks for the answer (+1) and for catching my typo. I've edited my post to reflect that.
            – Santana Afton
            Nov 7 at 4:11
















          Thanks for the answer (+1) and for catching my typo. I've edited my post to reflect that.
          – Santana Afton
          Nov 7 at 4:11




          Thanks for the answer (+1) and for catching my typo. I've edited my post to reflect that.
          – Santana Afton
          Nov 7 at 4:11


















           

          draft saved


          draft discarded



















































           


          draft saved


          draft discarded














          StackExchange.ready(
          function () {
          StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2frpg.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f135090%2fdoes-the-inquisitive-rogues-ear-for-deceit-feature-mesh-with-their-insightful-f%23new-answer', 'question_page');
          }
          );

          Post as a guest















          Required, but never shown





















































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown

































          Required, but never shown














          Required, but never shown












          Required, but never shown







          Required, but never shown







          這個網誌中的熱門文章

          Tangent Lines Diagram Along Smooth Curve

          Yusuf al-Mu'taman ibn Hud

          Zucchini