Can I cast Darkness in my mouth so I can turn it on/off each round without having to use an action?











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I am playing a 5e game, and I had the idea of casting darkness in my mouth, or on a small rock that I then place in my mouth.



At the start of each of my turns, I close my mouth. This obscures the darkness, giving my character full visual sight during their turn. Then, at the end of my turn, I open my mouth, obscuring the character in complete darkness.



This presumes a character could open and close their mouth as free actions during their turn. And since they can speak freely, under normal circumstances, I don't see why this wouldn't be allowed. Other than it feels spell-breaking, in that it becomes OP in a way probably unintended.



The idea of casting the spell on the rock is so that you could also spit the rock out on the ground and keep moving. Or spit the rock into your hand and throw it in a cardinal direction.



I think it would also be fun if during this time when my mouth is closed to obscure the darkness, I'm not able to speak more than a mumble IRL to the other players.



I'm going to bring this up with my DM before attempting it, but I wanted to get some thoughts on the concept first.



Is this possible within the rules? Am I missing anything obvious?










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  • 3




    @sevenbrokenbricks While it's a similar mechanical issue, the title of that question should make it clear that it was a very different problem.
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 2 at 17:34






  • 2




    Yeah, that's not even close to being a dup
    – Wibbs
    Nov 2 at 18:02










  • Related: Can I retrieve and then stow away an item every turn without using up my Action?
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 2 at 18:16








  • 1




    Is it a duplicate, isn't it? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110092
    – enkryptor
    Nov 2 at 20:02






  • 1




    @nitsua60 although, the main point of the answer is also the simultaneous combat
    – enkryptor
    Nov 3 at 18:52















up vote
16
down vote

favorite
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I am playing a 5e game, and I had the idea of casting darkness in my mouth, or on a small rock that I then place in my mouth.



At the start of each of my turns, I close my mouth. This obscures the darkness, giving my character full visual sight during their turn. Then, at the end of my turn, I open my mouth, obscuring the character in complete darkness.



This presumes a character could open and close their mouth as free actions during their turn. And since they can speak freely, under normal circumstances, I don't see why this wouldn't be allowed. Other than it feels spell-breaking, in that it becomes OP in a way probably unintended.



The idea of casting the spell on the rock is so that you could also spit the rock out on the ground and keep moving. Or spit the rock into your hand and throw it in a cardinal direction.



I think it would also be fun if during this time when my mouth is closed to obscure the darkness, I'm not able to speak more than a mumble IRL to the other players.



I'm going to bring this up with my DM before attempting it, but I wanted to get some thoughts on the concept first.



Is this possible within the rules? Am I missing anything obvious?










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  • 3




    @sevenbrokenbricks While it's a similar mechanical issue, the title of that question should make it clear that it was a very different problem.
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 2 at 17:34






  • 2




    Yeah, that's not even close to being a dup
    – Wibbs
    Nov 2 at 18:02










  • Related: Can I retrieve and then stow away an item every turn without using up my Action?
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 2 at 18:16








  • 1




    Is it a duplicate, isn't it? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110092
    – enkryptor
    Nov 2 at 20:02






  • 1




    @nitsua60 although, the main point of the answer is also the simultaneous combat
    – enkryptor
    Nov 3 at 18:52













up vote
16
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3





I am playing a 5e game, and I had the idea of casting darkness in my mouth, or on a small rock that I then place in my mouth.



At the start of each of my turns, I close my mouth. This obscures the darkness, giving my character full visual sight during their turn. Then, at the end of my turn, I open my mouth, obscuring the character in complete darkness.



This presumes a character could open and close their mouth as free actions during their turn. And since they can speak freely, under normal circumstances, I don't see why this wouldn't be allowed. Other than it feels spell-breaking, in that it becomes OP in a way probably unintended.



The idea of casting the spell on the rock is so that you could also spit the rock out on the ground and keep moving. Or spit the rock into your hand and throw it in a cardinal direction.



I think it would also be fun if during this time when my mouth is closed to obscure the darkness, I'm not able to speak more than a mumble IRL to the other players.



I'm going to bring this up with my DM before attempting it, but I wanted to get some thoughts on the concept first.



Is this possible within the rules? Am I missing anything obvious?










share|improve this question









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Bryan Casler is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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I am playing a 5e game, and I had the idea of casting darkness in my mouth, or on a small rock that I then place in my mouth.



At the start of each of my turns, I close my mouth. This obscures the darkness, giving my character full visual sight during their turn. Then, at the end of my turn, I open my mouth, obscuring the character in complete darkness.



This presumes a character could open and close their mouth as free actions during their turn. And since they can speak freely, under normal circumstances, I don't see why this wouldn't be allowed. Other than it feels spell-breaking, in that it becomes OP in a way probably unintended.



The idea of casting the spell on the rock is so that you could also spit the rock out on the ground and keep moving. Or spit the rock into your hand and throw it in a cardinal direction.



I think it would also be fun if during this time when my mouth is closed to obscure the darkness, I'm not able to speak more than a mumble IRL to the other players.



I'm going to bring this up with my DM before attempting it, but I wanted to get some thoughts on the concept first.



Is this possible within the rules? Am I missing anything obvious?







dnd-5e spells actions targeting






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edited Nov 3 at 0:14









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  • 3




    @sevenbrokenbricks While it's a similar mechanical issue, the title of that question should make it clear that it was a very different problem.
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 2 at 17:34






  • 2




    Yeah, that's not even close to being a dup
    – Wibbs
    Nov 2 at 18:02










  • Related: Can I retrieve and then stow away an item every turn without using up my Action?
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 2 at 18:16








  • 1




    Is it a duplicate, isn't it? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110092
    – enkryptor
    Nov 2 at 20:02






  • 1




    @nitsua60 although, the main point of the answer is also the simultaneous combat
    – enkryptor
    Nov 3 at 18:52














  • 3




    @sevenbrokenbricks While it's a similar mechanical issue, the title of that question should make it clear that it was a very different problem.
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 2 at 17:34






  • 2




    Yeah, that's not even close to being a dup
    – Wibbs
    Nov 2 at 18:02










  • Related: Can I retrieve and then stow away an item every turn without using up my Action?
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 2 at 18:16








  • 1




    Is it a duplicate, isn't it? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110092
    – enkryptor
    Nov 2 at 20:02






  • 1




    @nitsua60 although, the main point of the answer is also the simultaneous combat
    – enkryptor
    Nov 3 at 18:52








3




3




@sevenbrokenbricks While it's a similar mechanical issue, the title of that question should make it clear that it was a very different problem.
– Mark Wells
Nov 2 at 17:34




@sevenbrokenbricks While it's a similar mechanical issue, the title of that question should make it clear that it was a very different problem.
– Mark Wells
Nov 2 at 17:34




2




2




Yeah, that's not even close to being a dup
– Wibbs
Nov 2 at 18:02




Yeah, that's not even close to being a dup
– Wibbs
Nov 2 at 18:02












Related: Can I retrieve and then stow away an item every turn without using up my Action?
– Mark Wells
Nov 2 at 18:16






Related: Can I retrieve and then stow away an item every turn without using up my Action?
– Mark Wells
Nov 2 at 18:16






1




1




Is it a duplicate, isn't it? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110092
– enkryptor
Nov 2 at 20:02




Is it a duplicate, isn't it? rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/110092
– enkryptor
Nov 2 at 20:02




1




1




@nitsua60 although, the main point of the answer is also the simultaneous combat
– enkryptor
Nov 3 at 18:52




@nitsua60 although, the main point of the answer is also the simultaneous combat
– enkryptor
Nov 3 at 18:52










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accepted










This Would Not Work



...but not because of the way the Darkness spell works.



This wouldn't work because of an issue with the way combat happens. Combat is taken in turns, but it doesn't actually happen in turns. Mechanically, only because of how hard it is to actually do otherwise, combat is consecutive, but in actuality, combat is simultaneous.



Everyone is supposed to be fighting and defending at the same time, just your reaction times are different. Which means that open and closing your mouth during your turn won't actually do anything, since everyone else is attacking and defending during the same period of time as well. All that would happen is that there would be a strobe effect in the middle of you trying to kill each other.






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  • 25




    The simultaneity of combat is in practice impossible to consistently apply. Does the orc warlord on initiative count 2 who suffered massive damage from a rogue, and died, still get to make an attack of opportunity on the paladin on initiative count 3 who decides to move away from the dead foe?
    – SevenSidedDie
    Nov 2 at 18:56






  • 5




    sorry, but this just isn't true at all! not even a little bit! this response says it plainly: "mechanically, combat is consecutive". consider for a second the same scenario but not in a context where we are tempted to grasp for a reason to disallow this gimmick of being able to toggle darkness. what if OP already had darkness on from earlier, moves, loses concentration on their own turn due to an AOO, and then reactivates it. would you say "nope sorry, turns are simultaneous so your spell doesn't do anything to affect the next guy's turn"? of course not! turns are consecutive, and that's that.
    – K. M
    Nov 2 at 22:29






  • 4




    @SevenSidedDie We don't have to apply it consistently. Turns are an abstraction. This is a case where the abstraction breaks down and needs a reality check.
    – Mark Wells
    Nov 3 at 0:37






  • 10




    @K.M turns are an imperfect abstraction. As such, they are prone to being broken. While that may happen by chance, it shouldn't be allowed on purpose. Yes, that's inconsistent, but it still makes sense.
    – DonQuiKong
    Nov 3 at 7:28






  • 5




    As mentioned in my answer to another question (rpg.stackexchange.com/a/134825/43856), I don't think this kind of ruling is in spirit of the game in any way, has no RAW or RAI back up and even if you want to treat the combat as chaotic ("simultaneous" is never mentioned in the corebooks as far as I am aware), there are many ways to justify these interactions that actually go by the actual rules. Sorry, but this doesn't seem a good answer for RPG.se standards unless you can provide actual back up for your statements.
    – HellSaint
    Nov 3 at 18:47


















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Inside your mouth is not a legal target



Only points in space or objects are legal targets for darkness — since the inside of your mouth is part of you (a creature), you can’t cast it there.



Your PC’s mouth is also likely not opaque



You could fix the targeting by casting it on a marble or similar that you could place in your mouth after the casting, but then you have the problem that your mouth is unlikely to count as “opaque” by any of its senses (except the irrelevant one that describes an object’s shininess):




opaque, adjective




  1. not transparent or translucent; impenetrable to light; not allowing light to pass through.

  2. not transmitting radiation, sound, heat, etc.

  3. not shining or bright; dark; dull.




The combined skin and lining of the human mouth is translucent, in that it permits light (but not distinct images) to pass through. Elven, gnomish, and etc. mouths are not known to be different from human mouths in this regard either.



As a way to get a “free” (and therefore infinitely-usable per turn) toggle control on darkness, it’s highly questionable.



A dragonborn's scales might make their mouth opaque — check with your DM about this, but mind that contrary to appearances, scales are often translucent like skin, too. Even then, also mind that you'll likely still have to use the action economy as below, anyway.



How to toggle darkness for cheap, but not free



You have one item interaction per turn that won’t cost an action. Any scheme for toggling darkness will use that, even if it's in a somehow-opaque mouth, because of the aforementioned game-breakage.



So, to toggle darkness in a way that any PC race can use and keeps the game intact, just secure your marble to the inside of a small light-tight box tied to your belt; use your free item interaction to flip it open or closed.



That’s as big as this exploit really gets, and it’s not that powerful.






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  • You think mouths are transparent or translucent?
    – David Rice
    Nov 2 at 18:04






  • 7




    @DavidRice Try taking a flashlight and holding it up to your cheek. I'd say your mouth is definitely translucent.
    – Barret
    Nov 2 at 18:38










  • @DavidRice Translucent. Although now that you mention it, a dragonborn's scales may change that, so I've noted that.
    – SevenSidedDie
    Nov 2 at 18:51






  • 1




    You think inside your mouth is not a point in space? :D Isn't everywhere a point in space? (New to DnD so if there is a specific distinction here I don't know of it, my question is half joking, half serious!)
    – RyanfaeScotland
    Nov 2 at 21:43






  • 7




    @RyanfaeScotland It is, but then the darkness effect won’t move with you and stay centred inside your mouth unless you stay very still, which isn’t really doable in combat.
    – SevenSidedDie
    Nov 3 at 0:58


















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This would violate the Object Interaction Rules



In 5th Edition D&D, you're granted 1 free object interaction per turn, limited to only simple interactions. Opening your mouth probably counts (to make the object visible) and closing it probably also counts (to make it obscured) but doing both in the same turn would require you to use the Use an Object Action.



It might seem strange, but mechanically, it's not requiring (substantially) more effort than lifting said rock out of your pocket + putting it back.



A Thief archetype Rogue might have an easier time of it



Thief Archetype Rogues gain the Fast Hands feature at level 3, permitting them to perform the Use an Object Action as a Bonus Action instead. So theoretically, as a Thief Rogue (multiclassed with whatever class gives you Spellcasting abilities), you could




  • Close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)

  • Cast a Spell or make an Attack (Action)

  • Open your mouth (Bonus Action)


You could also do something less disgusting, like putting the rock inside a latched box that you then open + close using this sequence.



Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat



Because the separation of combat into distinct "turns" is meant to be an abstraction of real-time combat, some DMs interpret this as meaning that it's not possible to meaningfully "strobe" an effect like this without some delayed interaction (i.e. a Reaction used on someone else's turn). The degree to which this is RAW is hotly contested, but this is a common interpretation of the rules.



So as a result, some DMs may rule that this is what actually happens:




  • You close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)


    • The Darkness effect may or may not vanish, depending on what happens before your turn ends



  • You make an attack or cast a spell. If you open your mouth later in this turn, the attack is made with Disadvantage, or the spell must not require visibility of the target


  • If you open your mouth the Darkness effect doesn't vanish.


  • If you instead choose not to open your mouth, the Darkness effect does vanish (becomes obscured by your mouth) at the time you close your mouth (???)


Again: I am not certain that is a RAW ruling. I'm just informing you that that is a ruling many DMs make.



Human[oid] biology is disgusting



Strictly RAW, the Darkness effect spreads around corners, and so long as there is an unbroken path to all points within its radius, the Darkness spreads to that point. So some DMs may rule that the inside of your mouth (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...) does not adequately obscure the Darkness effect. This may vary depending on the creature's race, but 5e doesn't describe in precise detail how the anatomy of other Humanoid races vary from the anatomy of humans.






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  • 2




    I love how Fast Hands lets you move your mouth faster. Also, if you can speak a short sentence for free, that tends to involve a lot of mouth opening and closing. Not sure I'd agree with you for that reason.
    – MarkTO
    Nov 2 at 19:47






  • 5




    "Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat" I'd say it's more "Some DM's take issue with trying to use game mechanics to break the laws of physics/continuity". It's kinda the DM's job to shut down anything that requires the character performing the action to understand the meta rules that govern their universe (game).
    – Tezra
    Nov 2 at 20:17






  • 1




    @Xirema The reason this wouldn't work in reality, is that as soon as the character opens their mouth, their opponent would be able to see them and attack them effectively. Chances are, in this situation, their opponent would wait for the character to open their mouth, holding their attack to strike. You could rule that the character has to ready an action now, but since everything happens in real time, it would make sense that this effect wouldn't be as powerful as being in continual darkness from the spell. This tactic is still useful - but more as an escape tactic than a combat one.
    – Joshu's Mu
    Nov 2 at 20:46






  • 1




    @Joshu'sMu The bigger issue is that Darkness doesn't (usually) confer Disadvantage or Advantage when used, meaning readying an action in this situation doesn't remove any penalties—because the penalty wasn't affecting them in the first place.
    – Xirema
    Nov 2 at 21:06








  • 2




    "Human[oid] biology is disgusting... (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...)" - Oh come on, it's much more disgusting than that! Think about what happens when you eat something... it travels through a tube to your stomach where the walls absorb the good stuff and the remains travel through another tube to be expelled. If we are going to use connected biology as a reason for it not working I think 'You close your mouth but the Darkness continues to leak out of your anus.' is much more effective.
    – RyanfaeScotland
    Nov 2 at 21:50




















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While opening and closing your mouth might be free, timing it such that you don't hinder your allies and blind your enemies in the exact moment they take aim looks complicated enough that you should not be able to do it freely. Also, this may not prevent the enemies from delaying the attack until you close the mouth again, effectively having them attack first as soon as vision is restored (thus not having any practical effect in the attack sequence)






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    I don't think it would work, at least for most races. Per the Darkness spell:




    Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness.




    Oral cavities are not opaque (try putting a flashlight in your mouth), and I'd extend that to all normal player races. I could see this working with, say, a stone golem.






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    • By extension, then, putting a rock on which darkness has been cast into one's mouth means that the magical darkness continues emanating from the rock through its (presumably) human container, making it at least difficult for foes to access the source of the darkness. Correct?
      – Hey I Can Chan
      Nov 2 at 17:01










    • Maybe this should be a separate question, but does the mouth count as an object?
      – Ling
      Nov 2 at 17:05










    • @mech, That's a good point, there could definitely be a conversation about what is and an isn't opaque. I would say that if you can't see through it, it's not opaque. And as a practical test, could anyone from the outside tell how dark it is in another persons mouth? And if they can't differentiate then it's opaque to their visual perception. A way around also might be to craft something opaque that can be held in the mouth. Or just keep some ink on hand to swish around?
      – Bryan Casler
      Nov 2 at 17:07












    • @Ling, Maybe the person is the object and their mouth just a part of the object?
      – Bryan Casler
      Nov 2 at 17:07






    • 1




      @Bryan Casler A person is a creature, not an object.
      – Ling
      Nov 2 at 17:38


















    up vote
    0
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    If your mouth is "opaque" to the effect, then you can use this as you see fit, but prepared for weirdness if you try to talk with it in your mouth.



    That said, and especially given that I suspect you are the player cited in the question How do I deal with players persistently arguing for rules loopholes, even after I've tried to finalise my rulings?, you must always be prepared to abide by the top rule in D&D, that the word of the DM is law.



    So, regardless of what the rules may or may not say, if your DM says different, what he says goes period. This how to play:





    1. The DM describes the environment.

    2. The players describe what they want to do.

    3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions. (Basic Rules, page 3)




    So it partly depends on how tolerant your DM is of players thinking outside the box.



    If your DM overrules you, then, regardless of what the books say, show them the respect they are due as DM and comply with their rulings.






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    • Why would you suspect this is The player cited in a question from a year ago? I don't think they accusation if either correct or helpful in your answer.
      – NautArch
      Nov 4 at 11:16


















    up vote
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    TL;DR: This would work, but I think you're overestimating how powerful it is.



    This sounds like it would work, in the basic sense. The description of the Darkness spell clearly indicates that the darkness can be blocked and unblocked at will. Another answer objected to hiding it in your (natural) mouth specifically, but that seems like a trivial distinction to me (you could easily work around it by rigging up a contraption of some sort, for example a bag in your mouth attached to your teeth).



    Flavor-wise, the image of darkness spilling out of your mouth to fill the area around you is awesome for an Evil character. It also implies a certain delay as the darkness spreads like a mist. This would give the DM a good excuse to nerf it, but such a nerf wouldn't be RAW.



    Either way, the unreliable light from the Darkness spell being off some of the time will clearly be enough for every creature to know where every other creature is located, so the darkness will serve only to give a penalty to attack rolls. However... the fact that you also can't see the person attacking you gives you a penalty to defense... so the darkness might not have any effect on the combat at all.




    • At the start of your turn, you close your mouth.

    • Everyone (including you) can now see clearly. Combat proceeds as normal.

    • At the end of your turn, you open your mouth.

    • Everyone still remembers where everyone else was standing, so they have no problem attacking the correct locations.

    • Any attacks made in magical darkness have both advantage and disadvantage, so they're made at normal success rates.


    If you're clever about opening your mouth before an ally moves so the enemies have a chance to target the wrong location, this might be helpful. If you strictly open your mouth at the start of your turn, it seems rather useless. Overall, this doesn't seem OP to me.






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      7 Answers
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      7 Answers
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      up vote
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      This Would Not Work



      ...but not because of the way the Darkness spell works.



      This wouldn't work because of an issue with the way combat happens. Combat is taken in turns, but it doesn't actually happen in turns. Mechanically, only because of how hard it is to actually do otherwise, combat is consecutive, but in actuality, combat is simultaneous.



      Everyone is supposed to be fighting and defending at the same time, just your reaction times are different. Which means that open and closing your mouth during your turn won't actually do anything, since everyone else is attacking and defending during the same period of time as well. All that would happen is that there would be a strobe effect in the middle of you trying to kill each other.






      share|improve this answer








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      Warley is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.














      • 25




        The simultaneity of combat is in practice impossible to consistently apply. Does the orc warlord on initiative count 2 who suffered massive damage from a rogue, and died, still get to make an attack of opportunity on the paladin on initiative count 3 who decides to move away from the dead foe?
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 2 at 18:56






      • 5




        sorry, but this just isn't true at all! not even a little bit! this response says it plainly: "mechanically, combat is consecutive". consider for a second the same scenario but not in a context where we are tempted to grasp for a reason to disallow this gimmick of being able to toggle darkness. what if OP already had darkness on from earlier, moves, loses concentration on their own turn due to an AOO, and then reactivates it. would you say "nope sorry, turns are simultaneous so your spell doesn't do anything to affect the next guy's turn"? of course not! turns are consecutive, and that's that.
        – K. M
        Nov 2 at 22:29






      • 4




        @SevenSidedDie We don't have to apply it consistently. Turns are an abstraction. This is a case where the abstraction breaks down and needs a reality check.
        – Mark Wells
        Nov 3 at 0:37






      • 10




        @K.M turns are an imperfect abstraction. As such, they are prone to being broken. While that may happen by chance, it shouldn't be allowed on purpose. Yes, that's inconsistent, but it still makes sense.
        – DonQuiKong
        Nov 3 at 7:28






      • 5




        As mentioned in my answer to another question (rpg.stackexchange.com/a/134825/43856), I don't think this kind of ruling is in spirit of the game in any way, has no RAW or RAI back up and even if you want to treat the combat as chaotic ("simultaneous" is never mentioned in the corebooks as far as I am aware), there are many ways to justify these interactions that actually go by the actual rules. Sorry, but this doesn't seem a good answer for RPG.se standards unless you can provide actual back up for your statements.
        – HellSaint
        Nov 3 at 18:47















      up vote
      40
      down vote



      accepted










      This Would Not Work



      ...but not because of the way the Darkness spell works.



      This wouldn't work because of an issue with the way combat happens. Combat is taken in turns, but it doesn't actually happen in turns. Mechanically, only because of how hard it is to actually do otherwise, combat is consecutive, but in actuality, combat is simultaneous.



      Everyone is supposed to be fighting and defending at the same time, just your reaction times are different. Which means that open and closing your mouth during your turn won't actually do anything, since everyone else is attacking and defending during the same period of time as well. All that would happen is that there would be a strobe effect in the middle of you trying to kill each other.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Warley is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.














      • 25




        The simultaneity of combat is in practice impossible to consistently apply. Does the orc warlord on initiative count 2 who suffered massive damage from a rogue, and died, still get to make an attack of opportunity on the paladin on initiative count 3 who decides to move away from the dead foe?
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 2 at 18:56






      • 5




        sorry, but this just isn't true at all! not even a little bit! this response says it plainly: "mechanically, combat is consecutive". consider for a second the same scenario but not in a context where we are tempted to grasp for a reason to disallow this gimmick of being able to toggle darkness. what if OP already had darkness on from earlier, moves, loses concentration on their own turn due to an AOO, and then reactivates it. would you say "nope sorry, turns are simultaneous so your spell doesn't do anything to affect the next guy's turn"? of course not! turns are consecutive, and that's that.
        – K. M
        Nov 2 at 22:29






      • 4




        @SevenSidedDie We don't have to apply it consistently. Turns are an abstraction. This is a case where the abstraction breaks down and needs a reality check.
        – Mark Wells
        Nov 3 at 0:37






      • 10




        @K.M turns are an imperfect abstraction. As such, they are prone to being broken. While that may happen by chance, it shouldn't be allowed on purpose. Yes, that's inconsistent, but it still makes sense.
        – DonQuiKong
        Nov 3 at 7:28






      • 5




        As mentioned in my answer to another question (rpg.stackexchange.com/a/134825/43856), I don't think this kind of ruling is in spirit of the game in any way, has no RAW or RAI back up and even if you want to treat the combat as chaotic ("simultaneous" is never mentioned in the corebooks as far as I am aware), there are many ways to justify these interactions that actually go by the actual rules. Sorry, but this doesn't seem a good answer for RPG.se standards unless you can provide actual back up for your statements.
        – HellSaint
        Nov 3 at 18:47













      up vote
      40
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      40
      down vote



      accepted






      This Would Not Work



      ...but not because of the way the Darkness spell works.



      This wouldn't work because of an issue with the way combat happens. Combat is taken in turns, but it doesn't actually happen in turns. Mechanically, only because of how hard it is to actually do otherwise, combat is consecutive, but in actuality, combat is simultaneous.



      Everyone is supposed to be fighting and defending at the same time, just your reaction times are different. Which means that open and closing your mouth during your turn won't actually do anything, since everyone else is attacking and defending during the same period of time as well. All that would happen is that there would be a strobe effect in the middle of you trying to kill each other.






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Warley is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      This Would Not Work



      ...but not because of the way the Darkness spell works.



      This wouldn't work because of an issue with the way combat happens. Combat is taken in turns, but it doesn't actually happen in turns. Mechanically, only because of how hard it is to actually do otherwise, combat is consecutive, but in actuality, combat is simultaneous.



      Everyone is supposed to be fighting and defending at the same time, just your reaction times are different. Which means that open and closing your mouth during your turn won't actually do anything, since everyone else is attacking and defending during the same period of time as well. All that would happen is that there would be a strobe effect in the middle of you trying to kill each other.







      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      Warley is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer






      New contributor




      Warley is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.









      answered Nov 2 at 17:02









      Warley

      50046




      50046




      New contributor




      Warley is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.





      New contributor





      Warley is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






      Warley is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.








      • 25




        The simultaneity of combat is in practice impossible to consistently apply. Does the orc warlord on initiative count 2 who suffered massive damage from a rogue, and died, still get to make an attack of opportunity on the paladin on initiative count 3 who decides to move away from the dead foe?
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 2 at 18:56






      • 5




        sorry, but this just isn't true at all! not even a little bit! this response says it plainly: "mechanically, combat is consecutive". consider for a second the same scenario but not in a context where we are tempted to grasp for a reason to disallow this gimmick of being able to toggle darkness. what if OP already had darkness on from earlier, moves, loses concentration on their own turn due to an AOO, and then reactivates it. would you say "nope sorry, turns are simultaneous so your spell doesn't do anything to affect the next guy's turn"? of course not! turns are consecutive, and that's that.
        – K. M
        Nov 2 at 22:29






      • 4




        @SevenSidedDie We don't have to apply it consistently. Turns are an abstraction. This is a case where the abstraction breaks down and needs a reality check.
        – Mark Wells
        Nov 3 at 0:37






      • 10




        @K.M turns are an imperfect abstraction. As such, they are prone to being broken. While that may happen by chance, it shouldn't be allowed on purpose. Yes, that's inconsistent, but it still makes sense.
        – DonQuiKong
        Nov 3 at 7:28






      • 5




        As mentioned in my answer to another question (rpg.stackexchange.com/a/134825/43856), I don't think this kind of ruling is in spirit of the game in any way, has no RAW or RAI back up and even if you want to treat the combat as chaotic ("simultaneous" is never mentioned in the corebooks as far as I am aware), there are many ways to justify these interactions that actually go by the actual rules. Sorry, but this doesn't seem a good answer for RPG.se standards unless you can provide actual back up for your statements.
        – HellSaint
        Nov 3 at 18:47














      • 25




        The simultaneity of combat is in practice impossible to consistently apply. Does the orc warlord on initiative count 2 who suffered massive damage from a rogue, and died, still get to make an attack of opportunity on the paladin on initiative count 3 who decides to move away from the dead foe?
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 2 at 18:56






      • 5




        sorry, but this just isn't true at all! not even a little bit! this response says it plainly: "mechanically, combat is consecutive". consider for a second the same scenario but not in a context where we are tempted to grasp for a reason to disallow this gimmick of being able to toggle darkness. what if OP already had darkness on from earlier, moves, loses concentration on their own turn due to an AOO, and then reactivates it. would you say "nope sorry, turns are simultaneous so your spell doesn't do anything to affect the next guy's turn"? of course not! turns are consecutive, and that's that.
        – K. M
        Nov 2 at 22:29






      • 4




        @SevenSidedDie We don't have to apply it consistently. Turns are an abstraction. This is a case where the abstraction breaks down and needs a reality check.
        – Mark Wells
        Nov 3 at 0:37






      • 10




        @K.M turns are an imperfect abstraction. As such, they are prone to being broken. While that may happen by chance, it shouldn't be allowed on purpose. Yes, that's inconsistent, but it still makes sense.
        – DonQuiKong
        Nov 3 at 7:28






      • 5




        As mentioned in my answer to another question (rpg.stackexchange.com/a/134825/43856), I don't think this kind of ruling is in spirit of the game in any way, has no RAW or RAI back up and even if you want to treat the combat as chaotic ("simultaneous" is never mentioned in the corebooks as far as I am aware), there are many ways to justify these interactions that actually go by the actual rules. Sorry, but this doesn't seem a good answer for RPG.se standards unless you can provide actual back up for your statements.
        – HellSaint
        Nov 3 at 18:47








      25




      25




      The simultaneity of combat is in practice impossible to consistently apply. Does the orc warlord on initiative count 2 who suffered massive damage from a rogue, and died, still get to make an attack of opportunity on the paladin on initiative count 3 who decides to move away from the dead foe?
      – SevenSidedDie
      Nov 2 at 18:56




      The simultaneity of combat is in practice impossible to consistently apply. Does the orc warlord on initiative count 2 who suffered massive damage from a rogue, and died, still get to make an attack of opportunity on the paladin on initiative count 3 who decides to move away from the dead foe?
      – SevenSidedDie
      Nov 2 at 18:56




      5




      5




      sorry, but this just isn't true at all! not even a little bit! this response says it plainly: "mechanically, combat is consecutive". consider for a second the same scenario but not in a context where we are tempted to grasp for a reason to disallow this gimmick of being able to toggle darkness. what if OP already had darkness on from earlier, moves, loses concentration on their own turn due to an AOO, and then reactivates it. would you say "nope sorry, turns are simultaneous so your spell doesn't do anything to affect the next guy's turn"? of course not! turns are consecutive, and that's that.
      – K. M
      Nov 2 at 22:29




      sorry, but this just isn't true at all! not even a little bit! this response says it plainly: "mechanically, combat is consecutive". consider for a second the same scenario but not in a context where we are tempted to grasp for a reason to disallow this gimmick of being able to toggle darkness. what if OP already had darkness on from earlier, moves, loses concentration on their own turn due to an AOO, and then reactivates it. would you say "nope sorry, turns are simultaneous so your spell doesn't do anything to affect the next guy's turn"? of course not! turns are consecutive, and that's that.
      – K. M
      Nov 2 at 22:29




      4




      4




      @SevenSidedDie We don't have to apply it consistently. Turns are an abstraction. This is a case where the abstraction breaks down and needs a reality check.
      – Mark Wells
      Nov 3 at 0:37




      @SevenSidedDie We don't have to apply it consistently. Turns are an abstraction. This is a case where the abstraction breaks down and needs a reality check.
      – Mark Wells
      Nov 3 at 0:37




      10




      10




      @K.M turns are an imperfect abstraction. As such, they are prone to being broken. While that may happen by chance, it shouldn't be allowed on purpose. Yes, that's inconsistent, but it still makes sense.
      – DonQuiKong
      Nov 3 at 7:28




      @K.M turns are an imperfect abstraction. As such, they are prone to being broken. While that may happen by chance, it shouldn't be allowed on purpose. Yes, that's inconsistent, but it still makes sense.
      – DonQuiKong
      Nov 3 at 7:28




      5




      5




      As mentioned in my answer to another question (rpg.stackexchange.com/a/134825/43856), I don't think this kind of ruling is in spirit of the game in any way, has no RAW or RAI back up and even if you want to treat the combat as chaotic ("simultaneous" is never mentioned in the corebooks as far as I am aware), there are many ways to justify these interactions that actually go by the actual rules. Sorry, but this doesn't seem a good answer for RPG.se standards unless you can provide actual back up for your statements.
      – HellSaint
      Nov 3 at 18:47




      As mentioned in my answer to another question (rpg.stackexchange.com/a/134825/43856), I don't think this kind of ruling is in spirit of the game in any way, has no RAW or RAI back up and even if you want to treat the combat as chaotic ("simultaneous" is never mentioned in the corebooks as far as I am aware), there are many ways to justify these interactions that actually go by the actual rules. Sorry, but this doesn't seem a good answer for RPG.se standards unless you can provide actual back up for your statements.
      – HellSaint
      Nov 3 at 18:47












      up vote
      18
      down vote













      Inside your mouth is not a legal target



      Only points in space or objects are legal targets for darkness — since the inside of your mouth is part of you (a creature), you can’t cast it there.



      Your PC’s mouth is also likely not opaque



      You could fix the targeting by casting it on a marble or similar that you could place in your mouth after the casting, but then you have the problem that your mouth is unlikely to count as “opaque” by any of its senses (except the irrelevant one that describes an object’s shininess):




      opaque, adjective




      1. not transparent or translucent; impenetrable to light; not allowing light to pass through.

      2. not transmitting radiation, sound, heat, etc.

      3. not shining or bright; dark; dull.




      The combined skin and lining of the human mouth is translucent, in that it permits light (but not distinct images) to pass through. Elven, gnomish, and etc. mouths are not known to be different from human mouths in this regard either.



      As a way to get a “free” (and therefore infinitely-usable per turn) toggle control on darkness, it’s highly questionable.



      A dragonborn's scales might make their mouth opaque — check with your DM about this, but mind that contrary to appearances, scales are often translucent like skin, too. Even then, also mind that you'll likely still have to use the action economy as below, anyway.



      How to toggle darkness for cheap, but not free



      You have one item interaction per turn that won’t cost an action. Any scheme for toggling darkness will use that, even if it's in a somehow-opaque mouth, because of the aforementioned game-breakage.



      So, to toggle darkness in a way that any PC race can use and keeps the game intact, just secure your marble to the inside of a small light-tight box tied to your belt; use your free item interaction to flip it open or closed.



      That’s as big as this exploit really gets, and it’s not that powerful.






      share|improve this answer























      • You think mouths are transparent or translucent?
        – David Rice
        Nov 2 at 18:04






      • 7




        @DavidRice Try taking a flashlight and holding it up to your cheek. I'd say your mouth is definitely translucent.
        – Barret
        Nov 2 at 18:38










      • @DavidRice Translucent. Although now that you mention it, a dragonborn's scales may change that, so I've noted that.
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 2 at 18:51






      • 1




        You think inside your mouth is not a point in space? :D Isn't everywhere a point in space? (New to DnD so if there is a specific distinction here I don't know of it, my question is half joking, half serious!)
        – RyanfaeScotland
        Nov 2 at 21:43






      • 7




        @RyanfaeScotland It is, but then the darkness effect won’t move with you and stay centred inside your mouth unless you stay very still, which isn’t really doable in combat.
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 3 at 0:58















      up vote
      18
      down vote













      Inside your mouth is not a legal target



      Only points in space or objects are legal targets for darkness — since the inside of your mouth is part of you (a creature), you can’t cast it there.



      Your PC’s mouth is also likely not opaque



      You could fix the targeting by casting it on a marble or similar that you could place in your mouth after the casting, but then you have the problem that your mouth is unlikely to count as “opaque” by any of its senses (except the irrelevant one that describes an object’s shininess):




      opaque, adjective




      1. not transparent or translucent; impenetrable to light; not allowing light to pass through.

      2. not transmitting radiation, sound, heat, etc.

      3. not shining or bright; dark; dull.




      The combined skin and lining of the human mouth is translucent, in that it permits light (but not distinct images) to pass through. Elven, gnomish, and etc. mouths are not known to be different from human mouths in this regard either.



      As a way to get a “free” (and therefore infinitely-usable per turn) toggle control on darkness, it’s highly questionable.



      A dragonborn's scales might make their mouth opaque — check with your DM about this, but mind that contrary to appearances, scales are often translucent like skin, too. Even then, also mind that you'll likely still have to use the action economy as below, anyway.



      How to toggle darkness for cheap, but not free



      You have one item interaction per turn that won’t cost an action. Any scheme for toggling darkness will use that, even if it's in a somehow-opaque mouth, because of the aforementioned game-breakage.



      So, to toggle darkness in a way that any PC race can use and keeps the game intact, just secure your marble to the inside of a small light-tight box tied to your belt; use your free item interaction to flip it open or closed.



      That’s as big as this exploit really gets, and it’s not that powerful.






      share|improve this answer























      • You think mouths are transparent or translucent?
        – David Rice
        Nov 2 at 18:04






      • 7




        @DavidRice Try taking a flashlight and holding it up to your cheek. I'd say your mouth is definitely translucent.
        – Barret
        Nov 2 at 18:38










      • @DavidRice Translucent. Although now that you mention it, a dragonborn's scales may change that, so I've noted that.
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 2 at 18:51






      • 1




        You think inside your mouth is not a point in space? :D Isn't everywhere a point in space? (New to DnD so if there is a specific distinction here I don't know of it, my question is half joking, half serious!)
        – RyanfaeScotland
        Nov 2 at 21:43






      • 7




        @RyanfaeScotland It is, but then the darkness effect won’t move with you and stay centred inside your mouth unless you stay very still, which isn’t really doable in combat.
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 3 at 0:58













      up vote
      18
      down vote










      up vote
      18
      down vote









      Inside your mouth is not a legal target



      Only points in space or objects are legal targets for darkness — since the inside of your mouth is part of you (a creature), you can’t cast it there.



      Your PC’s mouth is also likely not opaque



      You could fix the targeting by casting it on a marble or similar that you could place in your mouth after the casting, but then you have the problem that your mouth is unlikely to count as “opaque” by any of its senses (except the irrelevant one that describes an object’s shininess):




      opaque, adjective




      1. not transparent or translucent; impenetrable to light; not allowing light to pass through.

      2. not transmitting radiation, sound, heat, etc.

      3. not shining or bright; dark; dull.




      The combined skin and lining of the human mouth is translucent, in that it permits light (but not distinct images) to pass through. Elven, gnomish, and etc. mouths are not known to be different from human mouths in this regard either.



      As a way to get a “free” (and therefore infinitely-usable per turn) toggle control on darkness, it’s highly questionable.



      A dragonborn's scales might make their mouth opaque — check with your DM about this, but mind that contrary to appearances, scales are often translucent like skin, too. Even then, also mind that you'll likely still have to use the action economy as below, anyway.



      How to toggle darkness for cheap, but not free



      You have one item interaction per turn that won’t cost an action. Any scheme for toggling darkness will use that, even if it's in a somehow-opaque mouth, because of the aforementioned game-breakage.



      So, to toggle darkness in a way that any PC race can use and keeps the game intact, just secure your marble to the inside of a small light-tight box tied to your belt; use your free item interaction to flip it open or closed.



      That’s as big as this exploit really gets, and it’s not that powerful.






      share|improve this answer














      Inside your mouth is not a legal target



      Only points in space or objects are legal targets for darkness — since the inside of your mouth is part of you (a creature), you can’t cast it there.



      Your PC’s mouth is also likely not opaque



      You could fix the targeting by casting it on a marble or similar that you could place in your mouth after the casting, but then you have the problem that your mouth is unlikely to count as “opaque” by any of its senses (except the irrelevant one that describes an object’s shininess):




      opaque, adjective




      1. not transparent or translucent; impenetrable to light; not allowing light to pass through.

      2. not transmitting radiation, sound, heat, etc.

      3. not shining or bright; dark; dull.




      The combined skin and lining of the human mouth is translucent, in that it permits light (but not distinct images) to pass through. Elven, gnomish, and etc. mouths are not known to be different from human mouths in this regard either.



      As a way to get a “free” (and therefore infinitely-usable per turn) toggle control on darkness, it’s highly questionable.



      A dragonborn's scales might make their mouth opaque — check with your DM about this, but mind that contrary to appearances, scales are often translucent like skin, too. Even then, also mind that you'll likely still have to use the action economy as below, anyway.



      How to toggle darkness for cheap, but not free



      You have one item interaction per turn that won’t cost an action. Any scheme for toggling darkness will use that, even if it's in a somehow-opaque mouth, because of the aforementioned game-breakage.



      So, to toggle darkness in a way that any PC race can use and keeps the game intact, just secure your marble to the inside of a small light-tight box tied to your belt; use your free item interaction to flip it open or closed.



      That’s as big as this exploit really gets, and it’s not that powerful.







      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited Nov 2 at 18:51

























      answered Nov 2 at 17:20









      SevenSidedDie

      201k26641921




      201k26641921












      • You think mouths are transparent or translucent?
        – David Rice
        Nov 2 at 18:04






      • 7




        @DavidRice Try taking a flashlight and holding it up to your cheek. I'd say your mouth is definitely translucent.
        – Barret
        Nov 2 at 18:38










      • @DavidRice Translucent. Although now that you mention it, a dragonborn's scales may change that, so I've noted that.
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 2 at 18:51






      • 1




        You think inside your mouth is not a point in space? :D Isn't everywhere a point in space? (New to DnD so if there is a specific distinction here I don't know of it, my question is half joking, half serious!)
        – RyanfaeScotland
        Nov 2 at 21:43






      • 7




        @RyanfaeScotland It is, but then the darkness effect won’t move with you and stay centred inside your mouth unless you stay very still, which isn’t really doable in combat.
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 3 at 0:58


















      • You think mouths are transparent or translucent?
        – David Rice
        Nov 2 at 18:04






      • 7




        @DavidRice Try taking a flashlight and holding it up to your cheek. I'd say your mouth is definitely translucent.
        – Barret
        Nov 2 at 18:38










      • @DavidRice Translucent. Although now that you mention it, a dragonborn's scales may change that, so I've noted that.
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 2 at 18:51






      • 1




        You think inside your mouth is not a point in space? :D Isn't everywhere a point in space? (New to DnD so if there is a specific distinction here I don't know of it, my question is half joking, half serious!)
        – RyanfaeScotland
        Nov 2 at 21:43






      • 7




        @RyanfaeScotland It is, but then the darkness effect won’t move with you and stay centred inside your mouth unless you stay very still, which isn’t really doable in combat.
        – SevenSidedDie
        Nov 3 at 0:58
















      You think mouths are transparent or translucent?
      – David Rice
      Nov 2 at 18:04




      You think mouths are transparent or translucent?
      – David Rice
      Nov 2 at 18:04




      7




      7




      @DavidRice Try taking a flashlight and holding it up to your cheek. I'd say your mouth is definitely translucent.
      – Barret
      Nov 2 at 18:38




      @DavidRice Try taking a flashlight and holding it up to your cheek. I'd say your mouth is definitely translucent.
      – Barret
      Nov 2 at 18:38












      @DavidRice Translucent. Although now that you mention it, a dragonborn's scales may change that, so I've noted that.
      – SevenSidedDie
      Nov 2 at 18:51




      @DavidRice Translucent. Although now that you mention it, a dragonborn's scales may change that, so I've noted that.
      – SevenSidedDie
      Nov 2 at 18:51




      1




      1




      You think inside your mouth is not a point in space? :D Isn't everywhere a point in space? (New to DnD so if there is a specific distinction here I don't know of it, my question is half joking, half serious!)
      – RyanfaeScotland
      Nov 2 at 21:43




      You think inside your mouth is not a point in space? :D Isn't everywhere a point in space? (New to DnD so if there is a specific distinction here I don't know of it, my question is half joking, half serious!)
      – RyanfaeScotland
      Nov 2 at 21:43




      7




      7




      @RyanfaeScotland It is, but then the darkness effect won’t move with you and stay centred inside your mouth unless you stay very still, which isn’t really doable in combat.
      – SevenSidedDie
      Nov 3 at 0:58




      @RyanfaeScotland It is, but then the darkness effect won’t move with you and stay centred inside your mouth unless you stay very still, which isn’t really doable in combat.
      – SevenSidedDie
      Nov 3 at 0:58










      up vote
      14
      down vote













      This would violate the Object Interaction Rules



      In 5th Edition D&D, you're granted 1 free object interaction per turn, limited to only simple interactions. Opening your mouth probably counts (to make the object visible) and closing it probably also counts (to make it obscured) but doing both in the same turn would require you to use the Use an Object Action.



      It might seem strange, but mechanically, it's not requiring (substantially) more effort than lifting said rock out of your pocket + putting it back.



      A Thief archetype Rogue might have an easier time of it



      Thief Archetype Rogues gain the Fast Hands feature at level 3, permitting them to perform the Use an Object Action as a Bonus Action instead. So theoretically, as a Thief Rogue (multiclassed with whatever class gives you Spellcasting abilities), you could




      • Close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)

      • Cast a Spell or make an Attack (Action)

      • Open your mouth (Bonus Action)


      You could also do something less disgusting, like putting the rock inside a latched box that you then open + close using this sequence.



      Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat



      Because the separation of combat into distinct "turns" is meant to be an abstraction of real-time combat, some DMs interpret this as meaning that it's not possible to meaningfully "strobe" an effect like this without some delayed interaction (i.e. a Reaction used on someone else's turn). The degree to which this is RAW is hotly contested, but this is a common interpretation of the rules.



      So as a result, some DMs may rule that this is what actually happens:




      • You close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)


        • The Darkness effect may or may not vanish, depending on what happens before your turn ends



      • You make an attack or cast a spell. If you open your mouth later in this turn, the attack is made with Disadvantage, or the spell must not require visibility of the target


      • If you open your mouth the Darkness effect doesn't vanish.


      • If you instead choose not to open your mouth, the Darkness effect does vanish (becomes obscured by your mouth) at the time you close your mouth (???)


      Again: I am not certain that is a RAW ruling. I'm just informing you that that is a ruling many DMs make.



      Human[oid] biology is disgusting



      Strictly RAW, the Darkness effect spreads around corners, and so long as there is an unbroken path to all points within its radius, the Darkness spreads to that point. So some DMs may rule that the inside of your mouth (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...) does not adequately obscure the Darkness effect. This may vary depending on the creature's race, but 5e doesn't describe in precise detail how the anatomy of other Humanoid races vary from the anatomy of humans.






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        I love how Fast Hands lets you move your mouth faster. Also, if you can speak a short sentence for free, that tends to involve a lot of mouth opening and closing. Not sure I'd agree with you for that reason.
        – MarkTO
        Nov 2 at 19:47






      • 5




        "Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat" I'd say it's more "Some DM's take issue with trying to use game mechanics to break the laws of physics/continuity". It's kinda the DM's job to shut down anything that requires the character performing the action to understand the meta rules that govern their universe (game).
        – Tezra
        Nov 2 at 20:17






      • 1




        @Xirema The reason this wouldn't work in reality, is that as soon as the character opens their mouth, their opponent would be able to see them and attack them effectively. Chances are, in this situation, their opponent would wait for the character to open their mouth, holding their attack to strike. You could rule that the character has to ready an action now, but since everything happens in real time, it would make sense that this effect wouldn't be as powerful as being in continual darkness from the spell. This tactic is still useful - but more as an escape tactic than a combat one.
        – Joshu's Mu
        Nov 2 at 20:46






      • 1




        @Joshu'sMu The bigger issue is that Darkness doesn't (usually) confer Disadvantage or Advantage when used, meaning readying an action in this situation doesn't remove any penalties—because the penalty wasn't affecting them in the first place.
        – Xirema
        Nov 2 at 21:06








      • 2




        "Human[oid] biology is disgusting... (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...)" - Oh come on, it's much more disgusting than that! Think about what happens when you eat something... it travels through a tube to your stomach where the walls absorb the good stuff and the remains travel through another tube to be expelled. If we are going to use connected biology as a reason for it not working I think 'You close your mouth but the Darkness continues to leak out of your anus.' is much more effective.
        – RyanfaeScotland
        Nov 2 at 21:50

















      up vote
      14
      down vote













      This would violate the Object Interaction Rules



      In 5th Edition D&D, you're granted 1 free object interaction per turn, limited to only simple interactions. Opening your mouth probably counts (to make the object visible) and closing it probably also counts (to make it obscured) but doing both in the same turn would require you to use the Use an Object Action.



      It might seem strange, but mechanically, it's not requiring (substantially) more effort than lifting said rock out of your pocket + putting it back.



      A Thief archetype Rogue might have an easier time of it



      Thief Archetype Rogues gain the Fast Hands feature at level 3, permitting them to perform the Use an Object Action as a Bonus Action instead. So theoretically, as a Thief Rogue (multiclassed with whatever class gives you Spellcasting abilities), you could




      • Close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)

      • Cast a Spell or make an Attack (Action)

      • Open your mouth (Bonus Action)


      You could also do something less disgusting, like putting the rock inside a latched box that you then open + close using this sequence.



      Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat



      Because the separation of combat into distinct "turns" is meant to be an abstraction of real-time combat, some DMs interpret this as meaning that it's not possible to meaningfully "strobe" an effect like this without some delayed interaction (i.e. a Reaction used on someone else's turn). The degree to which this is RAW is hotly contested, but this is a common interpretation of the rules.



      So as a result, some DMs may rule that this is what actually happens:




      • You close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)


        • The Darkness effect may or may not vanish, depending on what happens before your turn ends



      • You make an attack or cast a spell. If you open your mouth later in this turn, the attack is made with Disadvantage, or the spell must not require visibility of the target


      • If you open your mouth the Darkness effect doesn't vanish.


      • If you instead choose not to open your mouth, the Darkness effect does vanish (becomes obscured by your mouth) at the time you close your mouth (???)


      Again: I am not certain that is a RAW ruling. I'm just informing you that that is a ruling many DMs make.



      Human[oid] biology is disgusting



      Strictly RAW, the Darkness effect spreads around corners, and so long as there is an unbroken path to all points within its radius, the Darkness spreads to that point. So some DMs may rule that the inside of your mouth (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...) does not adequately obscure the Darkness effect. This may vary depending on the creature's race, but 5e doesn't describe in precise detail how the anatomy of other Humanoid races vary from the anatomy of humans.






      share|improve this answer

















      • 2




        I love how Fast Hands lets you move your mouth faster. Also, if you can speak a short sentence for free, that tends to involve a lot of mouth opening and closing. Not sure I'd agree with you for that reason.
        – MarkTO
        Nov 2 at 19:47






      • 5




        "Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat" I'd say it's more "Some DM's take issue with trying to use game mechanics to break the laws of physics/continuity". It's kinda the DM's job to shut down anything that requires the character performing the action to understand the meta rules that govern their universe (game).
        – Tezra
        Nov 2 at 20:17






      • 1




        @Xirema The reason this wouldn't work in reality, is that as soon as the character opens their mouth, their opponent would be able to see them and attack them effectively. Chances are, in this situation, their opponent would wait for the character to open their mouth, holding their attack to strike. You could rule that the character has to ready an action now, but since everything happens in real time, it would make sense that this effect wouldn't be as powerful as being in continual darkness from the spell. This tactic is still useful - but more as an escape tactic than a combat one.
        – Joshu's Mu
        Nov 2 at 20:46






      • 1




        @Joshu'sMu The bigger issue is that Darkness doesn't (usually) confer Disadvantage or Advantage when used, meaning readying an action in this situation doesn't remove any penalties—because the penalty wasn't affecting them in the first place.
        – Xirema
        Nov 2 at 21:06








      • 2




        "Human[oid] biology is disgusting... (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...)" - Oh come on, it's much more disgusting than that! Think about what happens when you eat something... it travels through a tube to your stomach where the walls absorb the good stuff and the remains travel through another tube to be expelled. If we are going to use connected biology as a reason for it not working I think 'You close your mouth but the Darkness continues to leak out of your anus.' is much more effective.
        – RyanfaeScotland
        Nov 2 at 21:50















      up vote
      14
      down vote










      up vote
      14
      down vote









      This would violate the Object Interaction Rules



      In 5th Edition D&D, you're granted 1 free object interaction per turn, limited to only simple interactions. Opening your mouth probably counts (to make the object visible) and closing it probably also counts (to make it obscured) but doing both in the same turn would require you to use the Use an Object Action.



      It might seem strange, but mechanically, it's not requiring (substantially) more effort than lifting said rock out of your pocket + putting it back.



      A Thief archetype Rogue might have an easier time of it



      Thief Archetype Rogues gain the Fast Hands feature at level 3, permitting them to perform the Use an Object Action as a Bonus Action instead. So theoretically, as a Thief Rogue (multiclassed with whatever class gives you Spellcasting abilities), you could




      • Close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)

      • Cast a Spell or make an Attack (Action)

      • Open your mouth (Bonus Action)


      You could also do something less disgusting, like putting the rock inside a latched box that you then open + close using this sequence.



      Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat



      Because the separation of combat into distinct "turns" is meant to be an abstraction of real-time combat, some DMs interpret this as meaning that it's not possible to meaningfully "strobe" an effect like this without some delayed interaction (i.e. a Reaction used on someone else's turn). The degree to which this is RAW is hotly contested, but this is a common interpretation of the rules.



      So as a result, some DMs may rule that this is what actually happens:




      • You close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)


        • The Darkness effect may or may not vanish, depending on what happens before your turn ends



      • You make an attack or cast a spell. If you open your mouth later in this turn, the attack is made with Disadvantage, or the spell must not require visibility of the target


      • If you open your mouth the Darkness effect doesn't vanish.


      • If you instead choose not to open your mouth, the Darkness effect does vanish (becomes obscured by your mouth) at the time you close your mouth (???)


      Again: I am not certain that is a RAW ruling. I'm just informing you that that is a ruling many DMs make.



      Human[oid] biology is disgusting



      Strictly RAW, the Darkness effect spreads around corners, and so long as there is an unbroken path to all points within its radius, the Darkness spreads to that point. So some DMs may rule that the inside of your mouth (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...) does not adequately obscure the Darkness effect. This may vary depending on the creature's race, but 5e doesn't describe in precise detail how the anatomy of other Humanoid races vary from the anatomy of humans.






      share|improve this answer












      This would violate the Object Interaction Rules



      In 5th Edition D&D, you're granted 1 free object interaction per turn, limited to only simple interactions. Opening your mouth probably counts (to make the object visible) and closing it probably also counts (to make it obscured) but doing both in the same turn would require you to use the Use an Object Action.



      It might seem strange, but mechanically, it's not requiring (substantially) more effort than lifting said rock out of your pocket + putting it back.



      A Thief archetype Rogue might have an easier time of it



      Thief Archetype Rogues gain the Fast Hands feature at level 3, permitting them to perform the Use an Object Action as a Bonus Action instead. So theoretically, as a Thief Rogue (multiclassed with whatever class gives you Spellcasting abilities), you could




      • Close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)

      • Cast a Spell or make an Attack (Action)

      • Open your mouth (Bonus Action)


      You could also do something less disgusting, like putting the rock inside a latched box that you then open + close using this sequence.



      Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat



      Because the separation of combat into distinct "turns" is meant to be an abstraction of real-time combat, some DMs interpret this as meaning that it's not possible to meaningfully "strobe" an effect like this without some delayed interaction (i.e. a Reaction used on someone else's turn). The degree to which this is RAW is hotly contested, but this is a common interpretation of the rules.



      So as a result, some DMs may rule that this is what actually happens:




      • You close your mouth (Free Object Interaction)


        • The Darkness effect may or may not vanish, depending on what happens before your turn ends



      • You make an attack or cast a spell. If you open your mouth later in this turn, the attack is made with Disadvantage, or the spell must not require visibility of the target


      • If you open your mouth the Darkness effect doesn't vanish.


      • If you instead choose not to open your mouth, the Darkness effect does vanish (becomes obscured by your mouth) at the time you close your mouth (???)


      Again: I am not certain that is a RAW ruling. I'm just informing you that that is a ruling many DMs make.



      Human[oid] biology is disgusting



      Strictly RAW, the Darkness effect spreads around corners, and so long as there is an unbroken path to all points within its radius, the Darkness spreads to that point. So some DMs may rule that the inside of your mouth (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...) does not adequately obscure the Darkness effect. This may vary depending on the creature's race, but 5e doesn't describe in precise detail how the anatomy of other Humanoid races vary from the anatomy of humans.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered Nov 2 at 17:16









      Xirema

      10.8k13272




      10.8k13272








      • 2




        I love how Fast Hands lets you move your mouth faster. Also, if you can speak a short sentence for free, that tends to involve a lot of mouth opening and closing. Not sure I'd agree with you for that reason.
        – MarkTO
        Nov 2 at 19:47






      • 5




        "Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat" I'd say it's more "Some DM's take issue with trying to use game mechanics to break the laws of physics/continuity". It's kinda the DM's job to shut down anything that requires the character performing the action to understand the meta rules that govern their universe (game).
        – Tezra
        Nov 2 at 20:17






      • 1




        @Xirema The reason this wouldn't work in reality, is that as soon as the character opens their mouth, their opponent would be able to see them and attack them effectively. Chances are, in this situation, their opponent would wait for the character to open their mouth, holding their attack to strike. You could rule that the character has to ready an action now, but since everything happens in real time, it would make sense that this effect wouldn't be as powerful as being in continual darkness from the spell. This tactic is still useful - but more as an escape tactic than a combat one.
        – Joshu's Mu
        Nov 2 at 20:46






      • 1




        @Joshu'sMu The bigger issue is that Darkness doesn't (usually) confer Disadvantage or Advantage when used, meaning readying an action in this situation doesn't remove any penalties—because the penalty wasn't affecting them in the first place.
        – Xirema
        Nov 2 at 21:06








      • 2




        "Human[oid] biology is disgusting... (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...)" - Oh come on, it's much more disgusting than that! Think about what happens when you eat something... it travels through a tube to your stomach where the walls absorb the good stuff and the remains travel through another tube to be expelled. If we are going to use connected biology as a reason for it not working I think 'You close your mouth but the Darkness continues to leak out of your anus.' is much more effective.
        – RyanfaeScotland
        Nov 2 at 21:50
















      • 2




        I love how Fast Hands lets you move your mouth faster. Also, if you can speak a short sentence for free, that tends to involve a lot of mouth opening and closing. Not sure I'd agree with you for that reason.
        – MarkTO
        Nov 2 at 19:47






      • 5




        "Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat" I'd say it's more "Some DM's take issue with trying to use game mechanics to break the laws of physics/continuity". It's kinda the DM's job to shut down anything that requires the character performing the action to understand the meta rules that govern their universe (game).
        – Tezra
        Nov 2 at 20:17






      • 1




        @Xirema The reason this wouldn't work in reality, is that as soon as the character opens their mouth, their opponent would be able to see them and attack them effectively. Chances are, in this situation, their opponent would wait for the character to open their mouth, holding their attack to strike. You could rule that the character has to ready an action now, but since everything happens in real time, it would make sense that this effect wouldn't be as powerful as being in continual darkness from the spell. This tactic is still useful - but more as an escape tactic than a combat one.
        – Joshu's Mu
        Nov 2 at 20:46






      • 1




        @Joshu'sMu The bigger issue is that Darkness doesn't (usually) confer Disadvantage or Advantage when used, meaning readying an action in this situation doesn't remove any penalties—because the penalty wasn't affecting them in the first place.
        – Xirema
        Nov 2 at 21:06








      • 2




        "Human[oid] biology is disgusting... (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...)" - Oh come on, it's much more disgusting than that! Think about what happens when you eat something... it travels through a tube to your stomach where the walls absorb the good stuff and the remains travel through another tube to be expelled. If we are going to use connected biology as a reason for it not working I think 'You close your mouth but the Darkness continues to leak out of your anus.' is much more effective.
        – RyanfaeScotland
        Nov 2 at 21:50










      2




      2




      I love how Fast Hands lets you move your mouth faster. Also, if you can speak a short sentence for free, that tends to involve a lot of mouth opening and closing. Not sure I'd agree with you for that reason.
      – MarkTO
      Nov 2 at 19:47




      I love how Fast Hands lets you move your mouth faster. Also, if you can speak a short sentence for free, that tends to involve a lot of mouth opening and closing. Not sure I'd agree with you for that reason.
      – MarkTO
      Nov 2 at 19:47




      5




      5




      "Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat" I'd say it's more "Some DM's take issue with trying to use game mechanics to break the laws of physics/continuity". It's kinda the DM's job to shut down anything that requires the character performing the action to understand the meta rules that govern their universe (game).
      – Tezra
      Nov 2 at 20:17




      "Some DMs are particular about the Simultaneity of Combat" I'd say it's more "Some DM's take issue with trying to use game mechanics to break the laws of physics/continuity". It's kinda the DM's job to shut down anything that requires the character performing the action to understand the meta rules that govern their universe (game).
      – Tezra
      Nov 2 at 20:17




      1




      1




      @Xirema The reason this wouldn't work in reality, is that as soon as the character opens their mouth, their opponent would be able to see them and attack them effectively. Chances are, in this situation, their opponent would wait for the character to open their mouth, holding their attack to strike. You could rule that the character has to ready an action now, but since everything happens in real time, it would make sense that this effect wouldn't be as powerful as being in continual darkness from the spell. This tactic is still useful - but more as an escape tactic than a combat one.
      – Joshu's Mu
      Nov 2 at 20:46




      @Xirema The reason this wouldn't work in reality, is that as soon as the character opens their mouth, their opponent would be able to see them and attack them effectively. Chances are, in this situation, their opponent would wait for the character to open their mouth, holding their attack to strike. You could rule that the character has to ready an action now, but since everything happens in real time, it would make sense that this effect wouldn't be as powerful as being in continual darkness from the spell. This tactic is still useful - but more as an escape tactic than a combat one.
      – Joshu's Mu
      Nov 2 at 20:46




      1




      1




      @Joshu'sMu The bigger issue is that Darkness doesn't (usually) confer Disadvantage or Advantage when used, meaning readying an action in this situation doesn't remove any penalties—because the penalty wasn't affecting them in the first place.
      – Xirema
      Nov 2 at 21:06






      @Joshu'sMu The bigger issue is that Darkness doesn't (usually) confer Disadvantage or Advantage when used, meaning readying an action in this situation doesn't remove any penalties—because the penalty wasn't affecting them in the first place.
      – Xirema
      Nov 2 at 21:06






      2




      2




      "Human[oid] biology is disgusting... (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...)" - Oh come on, it's much more disgusting than that! Think about what happens when you eat something... it travels through a tube to your stomach where the walls absorb the good stuff and the remains travel through another tube to be expelled. If we are going to use connected biology as a reason for it not working I think 'You close your mouth but the Darkness continues to leak out of your anus.' is much more effective.
      – RyanfaeScotland
      Nov 2 at 21:50






      "Human[oid] biology is disgusting... (which is connected to your nostrils, even your ears to a degree, through your windpipe...)" - Oh come on, it's much more disgusting than that! Think about what happens when you eat something... it travels through a tube to your stomach where the walls absorb the good stuff and the remains travel through another tube to be expelled. If we are going to use connected biology as a reason for it not working I think 'You close your mouth but the Darkness continues to leak out of your anus.' is much more effective.
      – RyanfaeScotland
      Nov 2 at 21:50












      up vote
      4
      down vote













      While opening and closing your mouth might be free, timing it such that you don't hinder your allies and blind your enemies in the exact moment they take aim looks complicated enough that you should not be able to do it freely. Also, this may not prevent the enemies from delaying the attack until you close the mouth again, effectively having them attack first as soon as vision is restored (thus not having any practical effect in the attack sequence)






      share|improve this answer








      New contributor




      pqnet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















        up vote
        4
        down vote













        While opening and closing your mouth might be free, timing it such that you don't hinder your allies and blind your enemies in the exact moment they take aim looks complicated enough that you should not be able to do it freely. Also, this may not prevent the enemies from delaying the attack until you close the mouth again, effectively having them attack first as soon as vision is restored (thus not having any practical effect in the attack sequence)






        share|improve this answer








        New contributor




        pqnet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
        Check out our Code of Conduct.




















          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          While opening and closing your mouth might be free, timing it such that you don't hinder your allies and blind your enemies in the exact moment they take aim looks complicated enough that you should not be able to do it freely. Also, this may not prevent the enemies from delaying the attack until you close the mouth again, effectively having them attack first as soon as vision is restored (thus not having any practical effect in the attack sequence)






          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          pqnet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          While opening and closing your mouth might be free, timing it such that you don't hinder your allies and blind your enemies in the exact moment they take aim looks complicated enough that you should not be able to do it freely. Also, this may not prevent the enemies from delaying the attack until you close the mouth again, effectively having them attack first as soon as vision is restored (thus not having any practical effect in the attack sequence)







          share|improve this answer








          New contributor




          pqnet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer






          New contributor




          pqnet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.









          answered Nov 3 at 16:21









          pqnet

          1412




          1412




          New contributor




          pqnet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.





          New contributor





          pqnet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






          pqnet is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
          Check out our Code of Conduct.






















              up vote
              3
              down vote













              I don't think it would work, at least for most races. Per the Darkness spell:




              Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness.




              Oral cavities are not opaque (try putting a flashlight in your mouth), and I'd extend that to all normal player races. I could see this working with, say, a stone golem.






              share|improve this answer





















              • By extension, then, putting a rock on which darkness has been cast into one's mouth means that the magical darkness continues emanating from the rock through its (presumably) human container, making it at least difficult for foes to access the source of the darkness. Correct?
                – Hey I Can Chan
                Nov 2 at 17:01










              • Maybe this should be a separate question, but does the mouth count as an object?
                – Ling
                Nov 2 at 17:05










              • @mech, That's a good point, there could definitely be a conversation about what is and an isn't opaque. I would say that if you can't see through it, it's not opaque. And as a practical test, could anyone from the outside tell how dark it is in another persons mouth? And if they can't differentiate then it's opaque to their visual perception. A way around also might be to craft something opaque that can be held in the mouth. Or just keep some ink on hand to swish around?
                – Bryan Casler
                Nov 2 at 17:07












              • @Ling, Maybe the person is the object and their mouth just a part of the object?
                – Bryan Casler
                Nov 2 at 17:07






              • 1




                @Bryan Casler A person is a creature, not an object.
                – Ling
                Nov 2 at 17:38















              up vote
              3
              down vote













              I don't think it would work, at least for most races. Per the Darkness spell:




              Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness.




              Oral cavities are not opaque (try putting a flashlight in your mouth), and I'd extend that to all normal player races. I could see this working with, say, a stone golem.






              share|improve this answer





















              • By extension, then, putting a rock on which darkness has been cast into one's mouth means that the magical darkness continues emanating from the rock through its (presumably) human container, making it at least difficult for foes to access the source of the darkness. Correct?
                – Hey I Can Chan
                Nov 2 at 17:01










              • Maybe this should be a separate question, but does the mouth count as an object?
                – Ling
                Nov 2 at 17:05










              • @mech, That's a good point, there could definitely be a conversation about what is and an isn't opaque. I would say that if you can't see through it, it's not opaque. And as a practical test, could anyone from the outside tell how dark it is in another persons mouth? And if they can't differentiate then it's opaque to their visual perception. A way around also might be to craft something opaque that can be held in the mouth. Or just keep some ink on hand to swish around?
                – Bryan Casler
                Nov 2 at 17:07












              • @Ling, Maybe the person is the object and their mouth just a part of the object?
                – Bryan Casler
                Nov 2 at 17:07






              • 1




                @Bryan Casler A person is a creature, not an object.
                – Ling
                Nov 2 at 17:38













              up vote
              3
              down vote










              up vote
              3
              down vote









              I don't think it would work, at least for most races. Per the Darkness spell:




              Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness.




              Oral cavities are not opaque (try putting a flashlight in your mouth), and I'd extend that to all normal player races. I could see this working with, say, a stone golem.






              share|improve this answer












              I don't think it would work, at least for most races. Per the Darkness spell:




              Completely covering the source of the darkness with an opaque object, such as a bowl or a helm, blocks the darkness.




              Oral cavities are not opaque (try putting a flashlight in your mouth), and I'd extend that to all normal player races. I could see this working with, say, a stone golem.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered Nov 2 at 16:44









              mech

              1,7221119




              1,7221119












              • By extension, then, putting a rock on which darkness has been cast into one's mouth means that the magical darkness continues emanating from the rock through its (presumably) human container, making it at least difficult for foes to access the source of the darkness. Correct?
                – Hey I Can Chan
                Nov 2 at 17:01










              • Maybe this should be a separate question, but does the mouth count as an object?
                – Ling
                Nov 2 at 17:05










              • @mech, That's a good point, there could definitely be a conversation about what is and an isn't opaque. I would say that if you can't see through it, it's not opaque. And as a practical test, could anyone from the outside tell how dark it is in another persons mouth? And if they can't differentiate then it's opaque to their visual perception. A way around also might be to craft something opaque that can be held in the mouth. Or just keep some ink on hand to swish around?
                – Bryan Casler
                Nov 2 at 17:07












              • @Ling, Maybe the person is the object and their mouth just a part of the object?
                – Bryan Casler
                Nov 2 at 17:07






              • 1




                @Bryan Casler A person is a creature, not an object.
                – Ling
                Nov 2 at 17:38


















              • By extension, then, putting a rock on which darkness has been cast into one's mouth means that the magical darkness continues emanating from the rock through its (presumably) human container, making it at least difficult for foes to access the source of the darkness. Correct?
                – Hey I Can Chan
                Nov 2 at 17:01










              • Maybe this should be a separate question, but does the mouth count as an object?
                – Ling
                Nov 2 at 17:05










              • @mech, That's a good point, there could definitely be a conversation about what is and an isn't opaque. I would say that if you can't see through it, it's not opaque. And as a practical test, could anyone from the outside tell how dark it is in another persons mouth? And if they can't differentiate then it's opaque to their visual perception. A way around also might be to craft something opaque that can be held in the mouth. Or just keep some ink on hand to swish around?
                – Bryan Casler
                Nov 2 at 17:07












              • @Ling, Maybe the person is the object and their mouth just a part of the object?
                – Bryan Casler
                Nov 2 at 17:07






              • 1




                @Bryan Casler A person is a creature, not an object.
                – Ling
                Nov 2 at 17:38
















              By extension, then, putting a rock on which darkness has been cast into one's mouth means that the magical darkness continues emanating from the rock through its (presumably) human container, making it at least difficult for foes to access the source of the darkness. Correct?
              – Hey I Can Chan
              Nov 2 at 17:01




              By extension, then, putting a rock on which darkness has been cast into one's mouth means that the magical darkness continues emanating from the rock through its (presumably) human container, making it at least difficult for foes to access the source of the darkness. Correct?
              – Hey I Can Chan
              Nov 2 at 17:01












              Maybe this should be a separate question, but does the mouth count as an object?
              – Ling
              Nov 2 at 17:05




              Maybe this should be a separate question, but does the mouth count as an object?
              – Ling
              Nov 2 at 17:05












              @mech, That's a good point, there could definitely be a conversation about what is and an isn't opaque. I would say that if you can't see through it, it's not opaque. And as a practical test, could anyone from the outside tell how dark it is in another persons mouth? And if they can't differentiate then it's opaque to their visual perception. A way around also might be to craft something opaque that can be held in the mouth. Or just keep some ink on hand to swish around?
              – Bryan Casler
              Nov 2 at 17:07






              @mech, That's a good point, there could definitely be a conversation about what is and an isn't opaque. I would say that if you can't see through it, it's not opaque. And as a practical test, could anyone from the outside tell how dark it is in another persons mouth? And if they can't differentiate then it's opaque to their visual perception. A way around also might be to craft something opaque that can be held in the mouth. Or just keep some ink on hand to swish around?
              – Bryan Casler
              Nov 2 at 17:07














              @Ling, Maybe the person is the object and their mouth just a part of the object?
              – Bryan Casler
              Nov 2 at 17:07




              @Ling, Maybe the person is the object and their mouth just a part of the object?
              – Bryan Casler
              Nov 2 at 17:07




              1




              1




              @Bryan Casler A person is a creature, not an object.
              – Ling
              Nov 2 at 17:38




              @Bryan Casler A person is a creature, not an object.
              – Ling
              Nov 2 at 17:38










              up vote
              0
              down vote













              If your mouth is "opaque" to the effect, then you can use this as you see fit, but prepared for weirdness if you try to talk with it in your mouth.



              That said, and especially given that I suspect you are the player cited in the question How do I deal with players persistently arguing for rules loopholes, even after I've tried to finalise my rulings?, you must always be prepared to abide by the top rule in D&D, that the word of the DM is law.



              So, regardless of what the rules may or may not say, if your DM says different, what he says goes period. This how to play:





              1. The DM describes the environment.

              2. The players describe what they want to do.

              3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions. (Basic Rules, page 3)




              So it partly depends on how tolerant your DM is of players thinking outside the box.



              If your DM overrules you, then, regardless of what the books say, show them the respect they are due as DM and comply with their rulings.






              share|improve this answer























              • Why would you suspect this is The player cited in a question from a year ago? I don't think they accusation if either correct or helpful in your answer.
                – NautArch
                Nov 4 at 11:16















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              If your mouth is "opaque" to the effect, then you can use this as you see fit, but prepared for weirdness if you try to talk with it in your mouth.



              That said, and especially given that I suspect you are the player cited in the question How do I deal with players persistently arguing for rules loopholes, even after I've tried to finalise my rulings?, you must always be prepared to abide by the top rule in D&D, that the word of the DM is law.



              So, regardless of what the rules may or may not say, if your DM says different, what he says goes period. This how to play:





              1. The DM describes the environment.

              2. The players describe what they want to do.

              3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions. (Basic Rules, page 3)




              So it partly depends on how tolerant your DM is of players thinking outside the box.



              If your DM overrules you, then, regardless of what the books say, show them the respect they are due as DM and comply with their rulings.






              share|improve this answer























              • Why would you suspect this is The player cited in a question from a year ago? I don't think they accusation if either correct or helpful in your answer.
                – NautArch
                Nov 4 at 11:16













              up vote
              0
              down vote










              up vote
              0
              down vote









              If your mouth is "opaque" to the effect, then you can use this as you see fit, but prepared for weirdness if you try to talk with it in your mouth.



              That said, and especially given that I suspect you are the player cited in the question How do I deal with players persistently arguing for rules loopholes, even after I've tried to finalise my rulings?, you must always be prepared to abide by the top rule in D&D, that the word of the DM is law.



              So, regardless of what the rules may or may not say, if your DM says different, what he says goes period. This how to play:





              1. The DM describes the environment.

              2. The players describe what they want to do.

              3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions. (Basic Rules, page 3)




              So it partly depends on how tolerant your DM is of players thinking outside the box.



              If your DM overrules you, then, regardless of what the books say, show them the respect they are due as DM and comply with their rulings.






              share|improve this answer














              If your mouth is "opaque" to the effect, then you can use this as you see fit, but prepared for weirdness if you try to talk with it in your mouth.



              That said, and especially given that I suspect you are the player cited in the question How do I deal with players persistently arguing for rules loopholes, even after I've tried to finalise my rulings?, you must always be prepared to abide by the top rule in D&D, that the word of the DM is law.



              So, regardless of what the rules may or may not say, if your DM says different, what he says goes period. This how to play:





              1. The DM describes the environment.

              2. The players describe what they want to do.

              3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions. (Basic Rules, page 3)




              So it partly depends on how tolerant your DM is of players thinking outside the box.



              If your DM overrules you, then, regardless of what the books say, show them the respect they are due as DM and comply with their rulings.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Nov 4 at 10:33

























              answered Nov 3 at 13:14









              Raymond Jennings

              454




              454












              • Why would you suspect this is The player cited in a question from a year ago? I don't think they accusation if either correct or helpful in your answer.
                – NautArch
                Nov 4 at 11:16


















              • Why would you suspect this is The player cited in a question from a year ago? I don't think they accusation if either correct or helpful in your answer.
                – NautArch
                Nov 4 at 11:16
















              Why would you suspect this is The player cited in a question from a year ago? I don't think they accusation if either correct or helpful in your answer.
              – NautArch
              Nov 4 at 11:16




              Why would you suspect this is The player cited in a question from a year ago? I don't think they accusation if either correct or helpful in your answer.
              – NautArch
              Nov 4 at 11:16










              up vote
              -2
              down vote













              TL;DR: This would work, but I think you're overestimating how powerful it is.



              This sounds like it would work, in the basic sense. The description of the Darkness spell clearly indicates that the darkness can be blocked and unblocked at will. Another answer objected to hiding it in your (natural) mouth specifically, but that seems like a trivial distinction to me (you could easily work around it by rigging up a contraption of some sort, for example a bag in your mouth attached to your teeth).



              Flavor-wise, the image of darkness spilling out of your mouth to fill the area around you is awesome for an Evil character. It also implies a certain delay as the darkness spreads like a mist. This would give the DM a good excuse to nerf it, but such a nerf wouldn't be RAW.



              Either way, the unreliable light from the Darkness spell being off some of the time will clearly be enough for every creature to know where every other creature is located, so the darkness will serve only to give a penalty to attack rolls. However... the fact that you also can't see the person attacking you gives you a penalty to defense... so the darkness might not have any effect on the combat at all.




              • At the start of your turn, you close your mouth.

              • Everyone (including you) can now see clearly. Combat proceeds as normal.

              • At the end of your turn, you open your mouth.

              • Everyone still remembers where everyone else was standing, so they have no problem attacking the correct locations.

              • Any attacks made in magical darkness have both advantage and disadvantage, so they're made at normal success rates.


              If you're clever about opening your mouth before an ally moves so the enemies have a chance to target the wrong location, this might be helpful. If you strictly open your mouth at the start of your turn, it seems rather useless. Overall, this doesn't seem OP to me.






              share|improve this answer



























                up vote
                -2
                down vote













                TL;DR: This would work, but I think you're overestimating how powerful it is.



                This sounds like it would work, in the basic sense. The description of the Darkness spell clearly indicates that the darkness can be blocked and unblocked at will. Another answer objected to hiding it in your (natural) mouth specifically, but that seems like a trivial distinction to me (you could easily work around it by rigging up a contraption of some sort, for example a bag in your mouth attached to your teeth).



                Flavor-wise, the image of darkness spilling out of your mouth to fill the area around you is awesome for an Evil character. It also implies a certain delay as the darkness spreads like a mist. This would give the DM a good excuse to nerf it, but such a nerf wouldn't be RAW.



                Either way, the unreliable light from the Darkness spell being off some of the time will clearly be enough for every creature to know where every other creature is located, so the darkness will serve only to give a penalty to attack rolls. However... the fact that you also can't see the person attacking you gives you a penalty to defense... so the darkness might not have any effect on the combat at all.




                • At the start of your turn, you close your mouth.

                • Everyone (including you) can now see clearly. Combat proceeds as normal.

                • At the end of your turn, you open your mouth.

                • Everyone still remembers where everyone else was standing, so they have no problem attacking the correct locations.

                • Any attacks made in magical darkness have both advantage and disadvantage, so they're made at normal success rates.


                If you're clever about opening your mouth before an ally moves so the enemies have a chance to target the wrong location, this might be helpful. If you strictly open your mouth at the start of your turn, it seems rather useless. Overall, this doesn't seem OP to me.






                share|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  -2
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  -2
                  down vote









                  TL;DR: This would work, but I think you're overestimating how powerful it is.



                  This sounds like it would work, in the basic sense. The description of the Darkness spell clearly indicates that the darkness can be blocked and unblocked at will. Another answer objected to hiding it in your (natural) mouth specifically, but that seems like a trivial distinction to me (you could easily work around it by rigging up a contraption of some sort, for example a bag in your mouth attached to your teeth).



                  Flavor-wise, the image of darkness spilling out of your mouth to fill the area around you is awesome for an Evil character. It also implies a certain delay as the darkness spreads like a mist. This would give the DM a good excuse to nerf it, but such a nerf wouldn't be RAW.



                  Either way, the unreliable light from the Darkness spell being off some of the time will clearly be enough for every creature to know where every other creature is located, so the darkness will serve only to give a penalty to attack rolls. However... the fact that you also can't see the person attacking you gives you a penalty to defense... so the darkness might not have any effect on the combat at all.




                  • At the start of your turn, you close your mouth.

                  • Everyone (including you) can now see clearly. Combat proceeds as normal.

                  • At the end of your turn, you open your mouth.

                  • Everyone still remembers where everyone else was standing, so they have no problem attacking the correct locations.

                  • Any attacks made in magical darkness have both advantage and disadvantage, so they're made at normal success rates.


                  If you're clever about opening your mouth before an ally moves so the enemies have a chance to target the wrong location, this might be helpful. If you strictly open your mouth at the start of your turn, it seems rather useless. Overall, this doesn't seem OP to me.






                  share|improve this answer














                  TL;DR: This would work, but I think you're overestimating how powerful it is.



                  This sounds like it would work, in the basic sense. The description of the Darkness spell clearly indicates that the darkness can be blocked and unblocked at will. Another answer objected to hiding it in your (natural) mouth specifically, but that seems like a trivial distinction to me (you could easily work around it by rigging up a contraption of some sort, for example a bag in your mouth attached to your teeth).



                  Flavor-wise, the image of darkness spilling out of your mouth to fill the area around you is awesome for an Evil character. It also implies a certain delay as the darkness spreads like a mist. This would give the DM a good excuse to nerf it, but such a nerf wouldn't be RAW.



                  Either way, the unreliable light from the Darkness spell being off some of the time will clearly be enough for every creature to know where every other creature is located, so the darkness will serve only to give a penalty to attack rolls. However... the fact that you also can't see the person attacking you gives you a penalty to defense... so the darkness might not have any effect on the combat at all.




                  • At the start of your turn, you close your mouth.

                  • Everyone (including you) can now see clearly. Combat proceeds as normal.

                  • At the end of your turn, you open your mouth.

                  • Everyone still remembers where everyone else was standing, so they have no problem attacking the correct locations.

                  • Any attacks made in magical darkness have both advantage and disadvantage, so they're made at normal success rates.


                  If you're clever about opening your mouth before an ally moves so the enemies have a chance to target the wrong location, this might be helpful. If you strictly open your mouth at the start of your turn, it seems rather useless. Overall, this doesn't seem OP to me.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited Nov 3 at 0:13









                  V2Blast

                  17.5k247112




                  17.5k247112










                  answered Nov 2 at 19:42









                  Brilliand

                  425410




                  425410






















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